Jim, its been awhile since there has been some discussion on here and I found this great article that has tons of stuff to discuss. It almost made me laugh but at the same time its forcing me to search the scriptures.
I am interested to find out if you have some scriptures other than what is mentioned in this article that support "sola scriptura".
I know several people who are roman catholics and it really bothers me because roman Catholicism is so close to Christianity that so many people don't see there is a difference but yet its so different that it means the difference between salvation or damnation.
http://www.catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp
sola scriptura
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jimbaum
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The Word of God
Zach,
This is a very important subject. It is overwhelming to me, and yet we ought to be willing to undertake it. I scanned over the article you link to and it is representative of discussions I've taken part in before.
This certainly makes sense when the Apostle Paul writes:
The Apostles of Christ oversaw the writing of the "New Testament". The Apostles had unique authority for such a task. It is my conviction that the canon of the New Testament was established long before the Council of Nicea. Perhaps there is evidence to support that conviction. I would not trust anything as canon written after the last Apostle died.
This is an opportunity for us to learn and to reach out to those on their way to the Lake of Fire because they are trusting in their works and rituals and religious system instead of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, contrary to the 66 books of the Bible.
Jim B.
This is a very important subject. It is overwhelming to me, and yet we ought to be willing to undertake it. I scanned over the article you link to and it is representative of discussions I've taken part in before.
Sola Scriptura, as I understand it, means only the Bible is our standard of truth, not man or his systems or hierarchies.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim 3:16-17
This certainly makes sense when the Apostle Paul writes:
God gave the "Old Testament" to Israel. That canon was well established by the time Jesus walked the earth. Jesus quoted from the Old Testament. Jesus appointed Apostles. The Apostles quoted the Old Testament....let God be true, but every man a liar..." Romans 3:4
The Apostles of Christ oversaw the writing of the "New Testament". The Apostles had unique authority for such a task. It is my conviction that the canon of the New Testament was established long before the Council of Nicea. Perhaps there is evidence to support that conviction. I would not trust anything as canon written after the last Apostle died.
This is an opportunity for us to learn and to reach out to those on their way to the Lake of Fire because they are trusting in their works and rituals and religious system instead of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, contrary to the 66 books of the Bible.
Jim B.
Hey, this is the first section that I was looking at because this is the first point that the Roman Catholic Church tells its followers to have evangelical Christians prove when discussing the issue of whether or not the church and tradition are equal with scripture or whether it's sola scriptura http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura.
Point out that the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.
The few other verses that might be brought up to "prove" the sufficiency of Scripture can be handled the same way. Not one uses the word "sufficient"—each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it.
Point out that the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop. Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17). In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.
The few other verses that might be brought up to "prove" the sufficiency of Scripture can be handled the same way. Not one uses the word "sufficient"—each one implies profitability or usefulness, and many are given at the same time as an exhortation to hold fast to the oral teaching of our Lord and the apostles. The thing to keep in mind is that nowhere does the Bible say, "Scripture alone is sufficient," and nowhere does the Bible imply it.
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jimbaum
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The Apostle's Doctrine
The Apostle's Doctrine
In Acts it is noted about the believers:
Timothy was commended:
When we continue steadfastly in the teachings of the New Testament and the Old Testament, we continue steadfastly in the teachings of the Apostles.
In Acts it is noted about the believers:
The Apostles taught from the Old Testament scriptures and oversaw the writing of the New Testament scriptures.And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42
Timothy was commended:
No where in the New Testament does it teach that there should be a perpetual office to teach new "truth"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 3:15
When we continue steadfastly in the teachings of the New Testament and the Old Testament, we continue steadfastly in the teachings of the Apostles.
Thanks, that reminds me that Jesus has told us to follow his example and so did the apostles. If we follow Jesus' example it seems to me that when he was tempted in the desert the scripture alone was enough of a reason to resist satan. It appears that he always brought things back to what the scriptures taught or didn't teach.
Also, Acts 17:11 "11And these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, receiving the word with all readiness of mind, daily searching the scriptures if these things were so." talks about the bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught was true, they didn't just accept the words and traditions taught by them but they compared them to scripture. I can't see any other reason why they were commended for this except that scripture must be the final authority and they were making sure that even the apostles were teaching what was true.
Also, Acts 17:11 "11And these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, receiving the word with all readiness of mind, daily searching the scriptures if these things were so." talks about the bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught was true, they didn't just accept the words and traditions taught by them but they compared them to scripture. I can't see any other reason why they were commended for this except that scripture must be the final authority and they were making sure that even the apostles were teaching what was true.
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jimbaum
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Amen, brother Zach. I agree. In some ways this can be a complex issue of manuscripts and "church fathers". But in other ways it is simple and straightforward. Even if a person does not agree with us about "sola scriptura" at the very least we can say what ever is written ought to agree with the 66 books of the Bible. The extrabiblical traditions and writings and pronouncements of Catholicism and Mormonism, for example, simply do not agree with what is already written.
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jimbaum
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Check it out, brother!
In a sense, yes, and yet check this out!
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31
Hmmm... For some reason that verse never crossed my mind. Thank you that helps me a lot. There have been several people I know including one from work that has grown up catholic and as I have been talking to some of them the topic of politics which almost always leads back to our faith but really it leads me back to the bible and them to their faith in the church. Its sad, I don't know what else to say.
When I first read that article I knew it wasn't true but I really didn't have any scripture that would go against what they used. The hardest thing though is showing people from scripture how the roman catholic church is not a Christian Church. People seem to think that as long as they believe in Jesus then they are saved but they don't understand how believing that may is was without any sin, or the Communion turns into the literal body of Christ make a difference in salvation.
When I first read that article I knew it wasn't true but I really didn't have any scripture that would go against what they used. The hardest thing though is showing people from scripture how the roman catholic church is not a Christian Church. People seem to think that as long as they believe in Jesus then they are saved but they don't understand how believing that may is was without any sin, or the Communion turns into the literal body of Christ make a difference in salvation.