procinwarn.com Discussion Board

Now when the bible talks about God it says things like He was not created had no beginning or end, this means since the bible clearly says that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have the same attributes of God the Father that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also like God in that they were not created nor have a beginning or end, they did not come from God they were God, they have always been together.

Agreed, God's Word was always within Him even before it was manifest to us. Also too I contend the 'waters' in Genesis 1 refers to Yehovah Elohim as these waters are pre-existing before the heavens and earth were created. Then the manifestation of His Word, bright enough to produce a light and a moment of time to pass the evening and the morning. Not only is it powerful and bright enough to shine forth from the darkness before the sun moon and stars were created but it is also bright enough to shine in the hearts of men and light their way.

In Gen 3:1 Eve knew about the tree of life because Adam or God told her, there's no reason to go beyond whats normal for humans when scripture doesn't say.

Maybe Troy, maybe. But I find no written evidence in scripture to support the first Adam telling the woman of this commandment. Nor do I find written evidence to support God voicing this command again after the woman was brought forth out of the first Adam. I am lead to think that since Adam had within him the life giver (Chavah) that it too received this commandment at the same time Adam did.

It seems too from Genesis 5:1-2 that Adam was created with both male and female attributes which seems to me to reinforce a oneness yet separate design again.

This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In
the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made
he him; Male and female created he them; and
blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when
they were created. Genesis 5:1-2

We too were 'in' the first Adam. Because when he sinned, so we all participated in that sin.
-----------------------------

Also, whats the Gospel?

Actually I asked: what Word was it that was made manifest in the flesh? thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. How was it He was so knowledgable and intimate with God's commandments how was it even as a young man He was able to astonish the elders and others in the congregation with wisdom? You see Troy I have come to see Messiah more than just a man sent to deliver me from my sins. But to also make it possible for me to see where sin is.

He is Living Torah, God's perfect Word grace and mercy made manifest in the flesh.

I have come to understand that certain Gentiles are grafted into the true olive tree (Israel). Israel is not grafted into christianity. This was made possible by three things 1, certain of the natural branches had been broken off which made room for Gentiles; 2, Messiah's sacrifice for our sin; 3, God telling Paul in a vision to call no man unclean that which He has called clean. Being grafted into the true olive tree we are now part of the common wealth of Israel. Neither Jew nor Gentile but rather one elect. Israel as a nation already has a King so I am taught by the Holy Spirit His laws that I might by holy for He is Holy. I want to be like David and delight in them too!

Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome” God Himself says, “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach”.

I give you good instruction; do not forsake my Torah. It is a tree of life to those who take hold of it, and those who hold fast to it are happy. Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its paths are peace. Proverbs 4:2

We aim at the righteousness of God Troy and seeing Torah is the collection of what God considers good or righteous, as well as evil and unrighteous, then we are aiming at the good and righteous aspects contained in His Torah. It is the measuring stick by which we are gauged against, we do not measure up, therefore, we NEED grace. But when the dispensational believer nails that which is called everlasting to the cross and declares it abolished, or obsolete.... then that which we aim at, the measuring stick, is taken away and the thing that tells us we NEED grace is no longer there. So why then do we need grace?

Torah I believe existed long before to Mt. Sinai. But it was placed in writing, and had the judgments added to it at Sinai, because Israel was about to become a nation. Torah then, would act as a constitution of sorts for this new nation. Within it even, a command that later Kings would have to write a copy of Torah by his own hand and then read it to the people every 7 years so they knew what was expected of them.

However, if someone still think God's Will and Wisdom for His people has been abolished, done away with or is now obsolete, tell me then, which of them will they say should be taken away?

Im sort of going through alot as my studies take me places. One fault of mine is after reading certain scriptures and books then posting thinking I have the answer when I really am just sort of verbalizing whats going through my little pea brain sometimes.

I really don't think Yeshua pre-existed in a literal sense. By my understanding there are only two places where it is written he was concieved by a miraculus virgin birth and thats it. Both of these are in the 'new testament' and never brought up or referred to again throughout any of the other letters or Tanakh. On top of that Yeshua never referred to himself as God nor did anyone else ever do so, anywhere.

Why would the Almighty Creator YHVH the one who spoke and it was done. Have to be born of a human women to save mankind? Didn't he do that after the great flood? No longer curse the ground we walk on nor destroy man no matter how much they might deserve it? If that isn't God's grace in action then I don't know what is. AND he did that from His throne in Heaven!

All scripture was given to the Hebrew written in Hebrew and preserved by Hebrews. It would I think, help if we did looked into their understanding of pre-existence.
"Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e.Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah" (Pesikta. 54a). In a later work: "From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created" (Pesikta Rabba. 152b)

Romans 4:17 (KJV)
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

1 Peter 1:19-20 NKJV
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained (foreknown, destined) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Read I John 4:2-3 is it God that came in the flesh or Yeshua?

But now how does that affect John chapter one? It would I think be more in keeping with Scripture THE ONE THE BEREANS SEARCHED i.e. the Tanakh. John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Divine plan/motive/thought, and the Divine plan/motive/thought was with God, and the Divine plan/motive/thought was God. The same (Plan) was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it and without it was not any thing made that was made.

I think worshiping a MAN as if he is a God is really really wrong. I know he said he and the Father is one but so am I and my wife. Not that we are of the same on a molecular level, but in character, thought and deed (sometimes ) Oh another problem begins as this would throw the Catholic doctrine of original sin right out the window.

Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM."

If the text is read as is I am thinking it should be Yeshua is simply claiming to be the Messiah appointed from eternity, or he may be his superiority to Abraham. But 'I am' isn't a proof of his divinity or a claim to be God. Had he intended it to be heard as a claim to divinity every devout Jewish man would have been well within his right and obligation to stone him for making such a claim, but they didn't did they? Another problem with using 'I am' as a proof is, 'I am' is NOT the name of God Almighty. 'I am' is the english translation of "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" which probably better translated is "He who was, He who is and He who is to come". The name of the eternal God is YHVH (not I am) and it is used well over 6,000 times in the Tanakh.

Peace

Through out the narrative religious people ripped their tunics and sought His life because they knew He was claiming to be God. Who can forgive sins but God?

Could you offer one source where he claimed to be God? From what I've read they could NOT find any cause for a death sentence. If he claimed to be God (of which I find no evidence) it would have given every Jew within ear shot of such a claim the lawful right to stone him to death on the spot.

‘My brothers, you descendants of Abraham’s family, and others who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent. Because the residents of Jerusalem and their leaders did not recognize him or understand the words of the prophets that are read every sabbath, they fulfilled those words by condemning him. Even though they found no cause for a sentence of death, they asked Pilate to have him killed. When they had carried out everything that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead; and for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, and they are now his witnesses to the people. And we bring you the good news that what God promised to our ancestors he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm,
“You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.”
As to his raising him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
“I will give you the holy promises made to David.”

This portion of scripture gives some interesting things to ponder. Not only does it say 'they' found no cause for his death. It also tells me the day when Yehovah Almighty God claimed Yeshua as his begotton son (NOT God the Son). Seems here it was the day he raised him from the dead doesn't it? Also too, why, I mean what would be the point of Yehovah giving Himself something He already has?

The context of Jesus' actions and words cry out that He is claiming to be God.

Like when the religious hypocrites would not answer His question, He said, "Neither will I answer your question."

His life is like a parable making clear who He is, so that there would be those with ears who would never hear and eyes who would never see.

mmm not to sure about that myself anymore. Most telling thing for me that Yeshua is NOT God icarnate is there were two very disticnt wills in operation in the garden of Gethsemane. If he had a choice he would rather have the cup pass from him but he clearly submits his will to that of God's will.

‘Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me; yet, not my will but yours be done.’ Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and gave him strength. In his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.

So I ask what god does God pray too? Why would an angel need to minister to his Creator. Oh speaking of Creator's can God be tempted? Of course not yet does not the Adversary tempt Yeshua? I can't imagine Satan asking the Creator - his creator to worship him. Next is why, as a child, is it said Yeshua grows in wisdom and knowledge Does God really have room for improvement? I think not. No Yeshua I believe is a perfected human being having found favor with God, truely a son of God. But not God the Son.

IMHO


Peace

P.S. nutting thing about this triunity doctrine is it isn't even a requisite to salvation yet.

But David... it IS a requirement for salvation.

Only one God saves... all other gods are false gods.

One or both of us has trusted in a false god.

David, your discussions have become like a Mormon or Jehovah's witness. What a change since you first began posting on this discussion board.

I believe that I have given you lots of opportunity to post your views. And you're a very gentle and kind individual.

But I'm thinking that I would rather discuss Biblical issues with people that are mostly on the same page as me. For me, believing that Jesus is God and that God is one God in three persons is a basis for discussion among disciples of Jesus.

Please feel free to post one more post and then I think it would be best to end your account. You're the only one that has been posting for a long time anyway. Perhaps this discussion board has run its course.

I have mixed feelings about this for alot of reasons.

Thank you for participating, David.

Love,

Jim

JW or Morman? call it as you see it, thats ok. But my religious point of view is grounded in Isaiah 56.

Jim it's been a pleasure you take care and please know what I expressed wasn't mean't to be contenious. I do believe Yeshua was sent by God, and I do believe he was an obedient servant, truely the son of God. Yeshua who suffered and died for our sins, who called us to repentance to turn to back God and learn His ways.

.. what is good; and what does the YHVH require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God


David

You weren't contentious, David. Thank you for the years of discussion. May the Lord bless you and keep you. Jim