(drno77) Hello Theo_Book, Welcome to the discussion board!
I can't help but wonder if we aren't saying the same thing from different angles in the following quote.[/quote]
(TB)
Actually echad references those things that are singular in nature, but exclusive; like one flesh to the exclusion of all others, one God to the exclusion of all others, one pair of socks, one bunch of bananas, one herd of cows, one flock of sheep, one cluster of grapes, one gaggle of geese, and it will always reference the number one, and always with a reference to exclusivity. There are not two pairs, two herds, two fleshes, two clusters, two gaggles, two flocks, and never will be understood that way.
drno77) I do not believe in 3 Gods (inclusive).
I believe in 1 God in 3 persons (exclusive).
Just as your example shows one; bunch/pair/cluster etc.
Just as we see 3 in 1 in nature;
We see the creation in three expressions time, space and matter.
We see time in three expressions, past, present, and future.
We see space in three dimensions, height width and depth.
We see water ( one substance H2O) in three forms, liquid, solid, and vapor.
I believe in one God revealed in three Persons of One Substance.
I believe these are flawed illustrations because they are all temporal.
But I think they give an example.
Nope! Coincidence of number three does not serve as ecvidence of a trinity any more than any other number.
Seven Spirits of God.
Seven candlesticks.
Seven days in Week.
Seven Ewe lambs set aside by Abraham.
Jacob served seven years for Rachel
Laban persued Jacob seven days.
Many many more examples
Four directions; North, South, East, West.
Four Horseman of Apocalypse.
Eden's river became four.
Four kings fought five.
Four portions reserved for Egyptians
Four sheep restored for a sheep
Four rings of gold on the Ark of Covenant
Four corneres on Ark of Covenant
Four feet on Ark of Covenant
Four cubits = breadth of curtain on ark of Covenant
Many, many more examples
See what I mean?
Twelve Apostles
Twelve sons of Jacob.
Twelve thrones for Apostles.
Twelve sons of Ishmael.
Twelve tribes of Israel.
Twelve well of water.
Moses built altar with twelve pillars.
Twelve stones in the river.
Twelve cakes to be baked.
Twelve oxen to pull six wagons.
Actually the number three shows up 426 times in scripture; four = 391; 5 = 270; 6 = 190; 8 = 80; nine = 49; 10 = 223; 11 = 24; and twelve = 125.
so if all you are going by is the number of times a number shows up in sxcripture, so far, three wins. but then TWO shows up with 703. So by that reconing, God should show up as a Dual deity. But, wait, look at the number "one." 1695 times. Nope, God has to be one. His number shows up more than any other number.
(dnro77)
It seems obvious to me that Jesus claimed many times to be God, compare Exod. 3:14 with the I Am statements by Jesus in the Gospel of John I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins., and Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus was claiming to be "that prophet" of whom Moses spoke in Deu 18:18; even John was though to be "that prophet" upon occasion. When Jesus szaid "Before Abraham was, I am," He was only saying that he was before Abraham in prophecy, as in Gen 3:15. Proof of this is ofund in Paul's letter to Corinth - I Cor 15:45-46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit
THAT WAS NOT FIRST which is SPIRITUAL, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(drno77)
Also Scripture clearly shows Jesus as God in 1 Timothy 3:16;
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
"Manifested" does not mean incarnated, it means "made known."[John 1:31]
In John 9:3 a man was cured so God could be manifested to men, in the cure.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is phaneroo [revealed] from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is phaneroo [manifest]
in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
It was aMANIFEST IN THEM not TO them. And they are not God.
(drno77)
I also believe I see the Trinity clearly in John 14:21-26.
Nope! God IS the Holy Spirit, it is an extension of his expression of himself, and Jesus is his son.
Joel 2:28 "I will pour forth of MY SPIRIT.." Acts 2:16-17 "This is that which was spooken by the prophet Joel - "I will pour forth of MY SPIRIT..."
There is no place in scripture where you can identify a third person of a trinity Holy Spirit.
(drno77)
I also agree that God created everything.
Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou [monos] alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
and again we see that it was Jesus who created everything in John chapter 1, Colossians chapter 1, and Hebrews chapter 1.
In answer to the question posed here If Jesus is "with the Father" in eternity, prior to his begettal in Mat 1:20, where is he? Jesus says in John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Slow down my friend, you are mixing way to many verses that are not connected.
You correctly quote Isa 37:16, then ignore it's implication expressed by "monos" when shown how Jesus used it to show that when he is with the father they
are "ouk monos" not "monos." [John 16:32]
As for his glory "Before the world was, that is a figure of speech used many times by God himself to show the preplaniing that went into the plan of salvation.
God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation.
Jesus references one of several things that were prepared before the world was created:
HIDDEN WISDOM TO BE REVEALED FOR OUR GLORY:
1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory:
CHOSE US IN CHRIST BEFORE THERE WAS A CHRIST:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
ORDAINED GOOD WORKS FOR THE SAINTS TO PERFORM:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.
CALLED US WITH A HOLY CALLING IN CHRIST BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN,
PROMISED US ETERNAL LIFE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN;
PREPARED A SACRIFICIAL LAMB BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you,
PROMISED JESUS GLORY BEFORE THE WORLD WAS:
AS EXPRESSED IN ISAIAH 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. AND FULFILLED IN John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. And John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.
WHICH SERVED AS INCENTIVE FOR JESUS TO FULFILL HIS MISSION: Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR THE JOY that was SET BEFORE HIM endured the cross, DESPISING the SHAME, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT JESUS WAS RELUCTANT TO SUFFER THE DEATH PREPARED FOR HIM?
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Col 1:16 is a reference to the fact that Jesus made changes in the universe; specifically in the realm of heavenly authorities; WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.
COL 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, WHETHER THEY BE thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus is "before all things" because he was elevated to first position in the creation, as the first one to be raised from the dead, without a intermediate prophet; and the first one raised from the dead to die no more. Col 1: 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
(drno77)
Since God has taught us that HE is the Holy spirit, how can he be seen as a third person of a trinity?
Interesting to note that He is called both the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8:9 ( also please check it in the context of the passage).
Seems pretty clear to me, again in John 14:26a But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,, that Scripture speaks of a Third Person since the definite article "the" is used in every translation I found, (eg. the comforter, the counselor, the helper. all in respect to the Holy Spirit.) who the Father is promised to send.
When an entity is known throughout scripture by many names, "Holy spirit," "the Holy Spirit," "The Spirit," "The Spirit of God," "The holy Spirit of God,"
it should not be thought to be strange when any one is used over any other.
(drno77)
If I am in any way pulling things out of context or distorting them please let me know.
To accuse you of anything whatsoever, I would have to be God and be able to read your heart. Your post presents to me an honest and sincere attempt to express what you believe to be the truth. I only hope my own post can come across as honest as yours did.
I think we are both seeking to learn how to express diferent perspectives that come from the heart, and also try to reach another perspective than that wo which we have been brought through study. Who has the right to accuse?
not me!
Blessings on you.
God, who knows me best
loved me just enough!