The Rapture & The Tribulation

Discuss with this brother issues relating to Dispensationalism, Pre-Millenialism, &
Pre-Trib Rapture - Agree or Disagree... in love!

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David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby David » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:29 pm

Yippeee I got on, thanks Jim!


Hello Mike,

I once went to a church where C.I. Scofield was taught. I would listen intently believing everything I was told. Why not, I loved my pastor, he was highly educated, a good teacher, and my friend. But as I matured I began to have questions particularly about a revived roman empire and a pre-tribulation rapture. I would ask him questions but when 'cornered' he just replied "we'll know the truth when we're in glory. No disrespect intended but thats a cop out. I believe God gave us everything we need to know, His word is pure and it is truth. All mysteries have been revealed we need only search the scriptures to see if these things are so and ask the Author for wisdom of understanding. (and I don't mean author as in GAOTU kind)

What ever is said here I cannot stress the importance for us all to search the scriptures to see if these things are so. I pray this to be a discussion of Gods word, lets not argue the merits of someone elses opinion of it. We can discuss His word ourselves and find the truth of of it for where two or more are gthered He is there too. C.I. Scofiled isn't here anymore it's just you and I. (hope that made sense :))One thing is for certain nowhere in scripture does God explicitly state a pre-trib rapture will occur yet on the same token he really doesn't explicity say there will not be one. However I believe most of what is said in scripture would lead one to believe in a post-trib pre-wrath rapture.

Isn't tribulation a time when the saints are persecuted and Gods wrath is poured out against the children of wrath? Even today Christians suffer triibulation the first apostles admitted to such trials as well. Why then does Christ allow them to suffer tribulation and the western church think it gets to skip out seven years early? Scripture teaches how to overcome and encourage on another. It is very important to be prepared for tribulation when it comes and it will come.

Our comission is to go out and make disciples and in doing so Jesus tells not to fear for He will be with us even to the end of the age. Doesn't that imply our comission isn't over with until the end of the age.
Last edited by David on Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby David » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:58 am

I should rephrase the part of not explicitly stating a post=trib rapture. I believe a timeline of events is written concerning it. That would cause one to prepare for it.

I got up this AM thinking how it makes no sense the first Christians were persecuted and dealt with tribulation. And the tribulation saints will endure the persecution and tribulation. But the likes of C.I. Scofield say not me I got a ticket on the glory train to heaven?

The whole of the New testement alone teaches how to endure, how to encourage one another in times of tribulation. I suggest we learn form it for when tribulation comes people who have been lead astray may suddenly lose hope as they hear the words of scoffers in the last days Where is the promise of his comming? For since the fathers fell asleepe, all things continue as they were fro the beginning of the creation.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37913 Here's a link of tribulation and persecution suffered by Christians today. I learned of this at a missions conference in Maryland at a church whose believers think tribulation isn't for them either. This man suffered yet glorified Christ everyday.

Mike_White
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Postby Mike_White » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:47 am

David,
Thanks for your interest in this discussion and your comments. I understand your position and where you are coming from. I do agree that C.I. Scofield is not the source of our answers (Praise God!) but that the scriptures are. I agonized over weather to include that in our discussion simply because it’s my desire to make this case from scripture but it did provide a framework for discussion so I included it. It’s easy for anyone to pick up a Scofield study Bible and regurgitate Mr. Scofields views or J.N. Darby's or others but to understand the concepts for your self, from scripture, is an entirely different matter.

I would like to circle back and discuss the other dispensations so hopefully this post is not viewed as a neglect of the other dispensations but for now lets jump ahead and discuss the pre-trib rapture view from a dispensational framework. And address your specific question.

You are right in saying that no where in scripture does God explicitly state a pre-trib rapture for believers. For that matter no popular end time view held in our day (Post-Trib, Pre-wrath, Preterist, or others) is stated explicitly anywhere in scripture. I would add though that the scriptures do explicitly state that Israel as a nation WILL go through the tribulation and that that time of judgment was designed specifically for them. (that may surprise you but I will expound this below) So the question as you clearly stated becomes two-fold. If Christians are called to suffer why would we miss the tribulation on the “train to glory” as you put it (I like that) ? Secondly why do dispensationalists try to avoid suffering through the pre-trib rapture view?

First I would like to give you the short answers then I would like to reason from the scriptures why these views are held by a dispensationalist in a long answer form. I will make this argument from scripture as to why I see it this way. It is not my desire to tear down the other views although I think they all have serious shortcomings because I believe if one understands scripturally speaking the pre-trib rapture view they will automatically understand the issues with the other views. I also believe that a complete understanding of the pre-trib rapture view will unlock many scriptures that previously may have been a mystery to the reader and for this reason I personally acknowledge its importance. It is also my desire that I help people study the scriptures for themselves and understand why they hold a view. It has been amazing to me to see how many people can regurgitate Mr. Scofields views but they cannot expound them because they have not made them their own through the careful searching of the scriptures themselves. So as a word of caution on this subject, it will be the tendency of those reading this post to take some of my points and use them as proof texts but I will say in advance that there is no single proof text on its own that will give understanding on this subject regardless of the view you hold. Rather only an understanding of Gods entire plan for Israel and how that is being carried out in context of the scriptures will give understanding. If it is the desire of the individual to debate the other views then the points here can serve that purpose but that purpose will leave the individual using them confused on this whole subject no differently than regurgitating Scofeilds arguments without understanding them. If it is the desire of the individual to understand Gods prophetic time line and how he is dealing with Israel and how the church is involved then this entire discussion will shed light on the whole subject and maybe save you some money in buying the books that debate the subject and hopefully unlock many difficult passages in scripture not just 1 Thessalonians 4 or Matthew 24. One last comment is that Israel and the Church as defined peoples of God are not the same thing but rather separate entities. It is assumed that this is the understanding. If you don’t understand this ask about it and I will explain it from scriptures but this is easy to prove. So with that lets begin…

Short Answer #1 – A dispensationalist sees a pre-trib rapture view not because of any specific proof text but because of an understanding of the entire eschatological time line according to Daniels 70 weeks starting with the Old Testament and working it’s way right into the new. This timeline is for Israel as a nation (not believers within Israel or outside of Israel, not the church, not the nations – I can prove this). An understanding of this entire timeline will render the pre-trib view as the only possible choice. Also the 100’s perhaps 1000’s of types in the Old Testament attesting to a pre-trib rapture. (no other view can claim this.) (I will post separately on the types if anyone wishes it’s an important discussion) And the pre-trib rapture view sees its ultimate consummation when Jesus reigns on his throne as King. (Presently being rejected by his own, he only reigns in the hearts of those who acknowledge him as king)

Short Answer #2 – A dispensationalist does not avoid suffering but sees a distinction between the phrases “Suffering”, “Tribulation”, “The Great Tribulation”, “Wrath” and “The Time of Great Wrath”. Some of these phrases are used interchangeably all are defined by the context of the passage. (See the long explanation on this.)

LONG ANSWER # 1 – First let’s explain why a dispensationalist holds a pre-trib view. A good starting place here is in Daniel chapter 9 (if you don’t understand the book of Daniel Arno C. Gaebelein offers a good commentary on the subject). In Daniel 9 we have the following prophecy given to Daniel (a Jew in captivity) from an angel.

(TAKEN FROM THE BIBLE GATEWAY) (NIV)
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

(Exposition of verses 20-24)The point I want to make of this passage is that the 70 (sevens) timetable was for Jews (“Your People” Israel) and for Jerusalem (“Your Holy Hill”) and this is not for all mankind or for believers or for the church or for the nations. This is also after the first prophecy in the book of Daniel prophesying that a King would come and establish an everlasting kingdom that would destroy the Gentile Kingdoms of men on earth essentially replacing them (Daniel 2, Revelation 11) The main point of this is that the Angel told Daniel in verse 24 that that anointing of the ultimate King on earth (Jesus) that had been prophesied in chapter 2 would not come until transgressions are finished, sin is ended, wickedness is atoned for, everlasting righteousness is brought in, vision an prophecy are sealed up. (no unfulfilled biblical prophecies) and until the 70 sevens are finished. Presently the Lord is rejected reigning in the hearts of those who acknowledge him as king from a distance not here on earth physically. Daniel 2:44 prophesies the establishment of this kingdom on earth.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

First off we know that the last seven here is not fulfilled yet because Jesus the “anointed one” himself refers to it as a future event in Matthew 24:15, that means that he is not anointed king on this earth yet either even though he is the anointed one.(vs 24) He is the rightful King but currently in rejection and not recognized as King here on earth by everyone. So the mention of the tribulation period here is for Israel and it’s still future…(I’m assuming you know that Daniel’s 70th week is about the tribulation if not we can back up on that) Now moving ahead (skipping lots) If Israel is required to go through a period of judgment (Elsewhere referred to as the time of Jacob’s trouble (Isaiah)) or specific tribulation in the form of Daniels 70th week before the King can be anointed then this has not happened yet… This also means contextually Israel as a national entity is predestined for this time period. Luke 21 tells us that this time of wrath (speaking specifically of Daniels 70th week) is for this people (Jews) and this place (Israel) nationally speaking. This is due to the rejection of the rightful King (Matthew 12). In Matthew 12 upon being accused of performing miracles through the power of Satan Jesus prophesies because of the rejection by Israel for her King that the nation of Israel is like a man who had a demon and it is cast out but returns after wandering. This demon upon returning finds the house swept clean, empty and put in order so it goes and gets it 7 more demons “more wicked than itself” but unclean like itself(Idolatrous) and then reoccupies the man. Israel as a nation is that house our Lord says. Israel in the Old Testament had an issue with idolatry and keeping the Sabbath year of rest for the land and as a result they wound up loosing the kingly line (Jehoiachins curse - Jeremiah…) and were put under Gentile authority (Daniel 1, 2, 2 Chronicles 36, Jeremiah 25 -Babylon) after 70 years in Babylon the house was swept clean and the “unclean spirit” (KJV) (referencing idolatry in context was removed) (they were cured of idolatry as a nation). The nation was prepared to receive their King by John the Baptist but instead rejected that forerunner even to the extent of beheading him. Then they rejected the rightful “anointed king” Jesus (Matthew 12) This resulted in the King (Jesus) rescinding the kingdom offer and in Matthew 12. Jesus explains that in a future day a more wicked form of idolatry “seven spirits more wicked than itself” will reoccupy the empty house (Israel) and the nation of Israel will accept a Gentile antichrist as the Messiah (John 5:43) since they didn’t accept their rightful Messiah. This Antichrist will establish an Idol in the temple (Matthew 24) . Today Israel’s house so to speak is empty, hardened, and cut off from the promises made to the patriarchs (Romans 9-11) and they await a period of a 7 year judgment (Luke 21, Daniel 8, 9, 11) designed to bring them to recognize their rightful Messiah (Zechariah 11) and re-engrafting (Romans 11) to the patriarchal promises made to Abraham.

SKIPPING LOTS…. At this point you see a dispensationalist perspective probably. Almost every prophecy in the Bible I read regarding the tribulation period is designed for Israel as a nation and the church which didn’t exist until pentecost is no-where mentioned. Now as I said “Almost every Prophecy” there are a few regarding the church. So the very few passages we have that deal with the church now must be examined in light of that (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15) and so on…. In those passages in context of the tribulation period or “time of wrath” (Daniel 8:19, Daniel 11:36, Luke 21) Thessalonians says that we are not appointed to wrath… Luke 21 says that the wrath cannot start until the time of the Gentiles is completed, Thessalonians also says that the one holding back the antichrist (I take it the holy spirit) will be removed ending the time of the Gentiles and allowing the antichrist to initiate his covenant. I take it that we will be removed with that Spirit before the signing of that covenant (Daniel 9) since the Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our removal (2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14) which will kick off that final week.

In dealing with 1 Corinthians 15 we have a timeline for the resurrection that fits a pre-trib context perfectly. And matches the harvest festivals of the old testament in Leviticus… – we can discuss that more if you like.

Passages like Matthew 24, Luke 21, (Olivet Discourse) have nothing to do with the Church which did not exist yet but rather are prophetic for Israel during the tribulation period. The oft quoted out of context verse “no man will know the day or the hour” is speaking of Jesus second coming at the end of the tribulation. Not a secret rapture. So Matthew 24 proves no views other than Israel will go through the tribulation And the context of that passage is that the Jews who have accepted the antichrist will not know the day or hour not every Jew. It could read “No man who has accepted the antichrist will know that day or hour” The Jews who are looking for their coming King and have rejected the Antichrist as their Messiah will know the season and they will be looking for him for deliverance from the tribulation period. (Matthew 24, 25) and by understanding Daniels prophecy they will look up for their deliverer realizing the time table and looking for it. (we should at some point expound Matthew 24 and 25 to eliminate those passages from this discussion I believe I can prove they have nothing to do with the church from an eschatological perspective) ----well there is a lot here and a lot more that could be said but this gives the basic reason a dispensationalist holds pre-trib view… it fits the context of ALL scripture not just Revelation or Matthew 24 and the only passages we have that even deal with the church say we will not go though it…. So ask more questions and we’ll deal with those more specifically one by one because I know there are a lot of gaps here. I haven’t explained why Thessalonians for example is not talking about the 2nd coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation or why 1 Corinthians 15 fits a pre-trib context.


LONG ANSWER # 2 – Now lets explain the distinctions a dispensationalist sees in the phrases “Suffering”, “Tribulation”, “The Great Tribulation”, “Wrath”, “The Time of Great Wrath”. In this discussion it’s important to pay attention to the context of the passage under discussion.

In Daniel 8:19 the last 3.5 years of this 7 year period is referred to as ”Time of Wrath”, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end”(end of Israel’s appointed 70 )(7’s) the last 7) Again in Daniel 11:36 the last 3.5 years are referred to as “The time of Wrath”. Revelation calls this “the great tribulation” Luke 21 mentions this same term “ Wrath” again in connection with the great tribulation or the last 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel and states that there will be Wrath in the land (Israel) against this people (the Jews). So the term “wrath” or “time of Wrath” is used several different ways in scripture but in the context of the passages mentioned above as well as Thessalonians “You are not appointed to suffer Wrath but to receive salvation” it is specifically talking about the tribulation period. Something the Bible says the Christian or believer in our present day is not appointed to. But remember that Israel was. (Probably why there was confusion over this issue that Paul had to deal with) Wrath in this context is the wrath of the Lamb Revelation 4 that is it is Jesus pouring out his wrath on the unbelieving world the Christian is not appointed to suffer wrath because Jesus paid that price for us satisfying the wrath of a holy God. In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul reveals the infomration about the Antichrist mentioned above. But the discussion should be taken together.

Now Tribulation is simply trials in a general sense Jesus said “in this world you will have tribulation” the context of that verse is not saying that we would go through “The Great Tribulation” its saying we are going to have trouble. So I do believe every believer that is living a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer in this life time and it is what we are called to (Philippians 1:29) if I’m persecuted I go through tribulation or suffering. Not “The Great Tribulation” and there are a whole slew of verses like John 16:33 that talk about the Christian having trouble (NIV), Tribulation (KVJ) or suffering like Philippians 1:29 above (Romans 8:35) but not in the context of “ The Great Tribulation” which is a specific 7 year period for-ordained for Israel. Those are general sufferings for for the christian on behalf of Christ in this lifetime while we walk through this world as believers that we have been called to and appointed to.

So to sum it up tribulation and suffering in a general sense are trials Christians face both physical and spiritually for being associated with Christ. “The great Tribulation“ is specific hardships predicted for the nation of Israel during the 70th week of Daniel. Wrath is judgment from God generically in many passages. However in the specific passages mentioned above it refers to the specific judgment poured out on this earth during the last week of Daniels prophecy.

Well this is getting long so I’ll sign off for now. Ask me more questions about specific scriptures and well discuss them.

God Bless,
Michael

David
Posts: 132
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Location: Charleston, SC

Postby David » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:12 pm

Hi Mike,

First off I have no doubt the book of Daniel deals directly with Israel. God had warned them to repent of their wickedness and iniquity and return to Him. Well, they didn’t and are now suffering the consequences hence Him being addressed as the God of Heaven in Daniel rather than the God of Israel. Those consequences and how long they last are described by Daniel in very fine detail including a timeline regarding when the resurrection will occur. But by no means do I assume anymore only Israel and unbelievers will be here on earth.

We should note when reading Daniel every dream and or vision is followed up, usually no more than a few verses later, by an interpretation given to Daniel by the God of Heaven personally or via one of His messengers. I understand that the terminus of the 69th week is when Messiah the Prince is rejected in Jerusalem (Some Christians celebrate it as Palm Sunday).

Now we have a huge amount of time spaning between the 69th annd 70th week.

The beginning of the seventieth week will start on the day the prince that shall come confirms the covenant with many, that covenant is kept for 1260 days. After which arrives mid-70th week the abomination of desolation for another 1260 days and great tribulation. There also is written a extra month of days added to the last half of the seventieth week in chapter 12 (1290 days). I'm believe that period of time is the beginning or starting shortly afterwards the wrath of God when Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:...


It also follows the same timeline established in Mathew 24:14 - 31 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Now when I read Daniel it appears to begin in chapter 2 with the image as the “big picture” so to speak and as one reads further it greater detail is gained regarding the fourth kingdom, the Anti-Christ, and finally Michael the Prince and only after He has stood up is anything said in Daniel about a resurrection. The same goes for Mathew the abomination of desolation, tribulation, second coming then resurrection.

If Im not mistaken the dead rise first then those who remain are caught up. So how can we the living whose commission doesn’t end until the end of the age be caught up before them?


John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.""
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby David » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:19 pm

I know this will be somewhat off topic but I couldn't resist.

1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, yee haue no need that I write vnto you.

I wonder does that verse and associated scripture imply we should already know? Its not like he said "I will not tell you" or "I cannot tell you", "or it will remain a mystery". Thinking of the times and seasons. Christ crucifixion, Passover; His burial, Feast of unleavened bread; His reesurection, Feast of First Fruits; The comforter sent, Pentecost.

The next stop Daniels 70th week, Could it begin one future autumn day when the first trumpet sounds at the beginning of the Rosh Hoshanna-Feast of Trumpets ending 2550 (1260 + 1290) days or, if Im not mistaken, 7 trumpets later on or about the Day of Atonement. Just a thought

Speaking of trumpets. 1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Last trumpet the dead will be raised then we who remain are caught up. Comments?

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: The Rapture & The Tribulation

Postby David » Fri May 09, 2008 4:53 am

I suspect with lives as they are here it can be pretty busy. I would like to let everyone know I had no intention to accuse anyone of wrong doing nor did I intend to create some new 'movement' to be discussed here. I hope some will see this and look for themselves the things of Gods. Commentaries are somewhat of a help at times I suppose. But what I eventually found I had to do was after reading the commentaries I needed to read the Holy Bible to see if it was so and sometimes if not most of what was written wasn't so. So now rather than reading fifeteen books of varying opinion I just read His.

Unless someone else posts here I leave you with these words of encouragement. Fight a good fight, stay the course and keep the faith. Never fearing what man shall do unto you on account of your faith in Yeshua The Christ.

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: The Rapture & The Tribulation

Postby David » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:37 am

In Daniel 8:19 the last 3.5 years of this 7 year period is referred to as ”Time of Wrath”, “because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end”(end of Israel’s appointed 70 )(7’s) the last 7) Again in Daniel 11:36 the last 3.5 years are referred to as “The time of Wrath”. Revelation calls this “the great tribulation” Luke 21 mentions this same term “ Wrath” again in connection with the great tribulation or the last 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel and states that there will be Wrath in the land (Israel) against this people (the Jews). So the term “wrath” or “time of Wrath” is used several different ways in scripture but in the context of the passages mentioned above as well as Thessalonians “You are not appointed to suffer Wrath but to receive salvation” it is specifically talking about the tribulation period. Something the Bible says the Christian or believer in our present day is not appointed to. But remember that Israel was. (Probably why there was confusion over this issue that Paul had to deal with) Wrath in this context is the wrath of the Lamb Revelation 4 that is it is Jesus pouring out his wrath on the unbelieving world the Christian is not appointed to suffer wrath because Jesus paid that price for us satisfying the wrath of a holy God. In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul reveals the infomration about the Antichrist mentioned above. But the discussion should be taken together.


Who refers to this 7 year period of as a time of wrath, where in scripture does it say this? When I read it, it seems to explicitly state otherwise.

Mathew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Jesus in verse 15 referenced Daniel. Lets take a look at chapter 7 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Here it written the stout horn will prevail for a time and times and the dividing of time a.k.a. 3.5 years or 1260 days. This is speaking directly of what happens from the mid-week point of the last week in Daniel to the end of it 1260 days later.

Lets look at chapter Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What happens after the great tribulation is Gods wrath as writtnen Mathew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Now compare Mathew 24:29 with Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the
earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

great tribulation THEN wrath. during the great tribulation "the saints" His words not mine are persecuted as it is written they shall be given into his hand and he shall prevail against them (not tribulation saints, not the sealed 144,000 saints or jewish saints just plain old saints). End of tribulation Gods wrath poured out on the wicked. The saints are not appointed unto wrath that is what we escape.


Let me also nip in the bud and say nothing in Daniel is refering to Antiochus. Read in Mathew 24:15 Jesus was speaking around 30 A.D. to His disciples concerning a future event namely the great tribulation. Antiochus DIED about 190 years BEFORE this question was asked. The horn before whom 3 others fell, the stout horn, the little horn and the vile king are all speaking of the samething Anti-Christ.


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