Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Discuss world empires past, present, and future. What does the Bible say about the empires of the world?
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Postby jimbaum » Sun May 27, 2007 6:45 am

David wrote:

Btw Im still struggling with the 70 weeks part, if you or someone else who could explainn it better please send'em here Otherwise I have more studying to do.


I'm pretty sure there are people very equipped to discuss Daniel and the 70th week that look at this discussion from time to time... and for some reason they don't want to take part!

I invite you who read this... send me an email and I will register you and you can help us examine these things.

Jim

David
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Postby David » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:45 am

edit
Last edited by David on Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Judah9
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Postby Judah9 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:58 am

hello jim and david.

i see you all basically stopped on this a while ago. in reading daniel again to follow your postings i was drawn back to here.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

who / what are the THEY that mingle themselves with the SEED of men?

David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:11 pm

This response it seems is a longtime coming and Im sorry you waited so long but... I'm not certain what that means. I suppose though these people of the 4th kingdom will mingle with others on earth but not become as them. Tribal or clans comes to mind but that may not really fit the description. Maybe Genesis 16:12 will help And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

When you read chapter two many commentators will immediately interpret the dream described in verses 31-35. Look at those commentaries some reference these very verses and give you their interpretation. Yet in verses 36 -45 we read via Daniel Gods interpretation. I ask then by whose authority do they do this, have they some new revelation from God? You see Daniel has already inquired as to the interpretaion of the dream and God has already told us through Daniel.

Here is the dream

Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
Dan 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Think about this for a moment the king didn't remember the dream and had all the astrologers, magicians and wisemen in Babylon condemmed to death because they couldn't figure it out either. The executioner came for Daniel, Daniel says whoa wait a minute I will inquire God for the answer. God gave him the answer and verse 36 -45 we can read it.

Here is the interpretation

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Though not specifically named we can from further reading ascertain the the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms may be the Mede Persian and Greek kingdoms. Even so look where God focuses our attention the 4th kingdom and with such great detail. But we find from the interpretation of the image out only the nature and tthe time of its existence nothing more. So the fourth kingdom will have the strength of iron yet the kingdom will be fragile. I suspect it to mean when under a common cause with strong leadership it will be a fierce and strong kingdom. Without such leadership and goals it can easily fall apart. We also find that it and ten kings will be in exsistence when Christ returns.

Only when you read later chapters does God reveal the location. Once you learn of the location Ezekiel 38 and 39 make sense as something that will not happen before Armeggedon but rather is Armegeddon. Compare Islamic religous beliefs to what Jesus the Son of God specifically warned us about and you will easily see a great people prepared to follow Anti-Christ.

Check and recheck scripture. Particularly when someone tells you something including me. I was taught Tyre described in Ezekiel and 27 and 28 (I think) as something having already happened. Teachers have told me it is a bald rock where fisherman dry their nets on and the causeway Alexander The Great buildt is the only thing that really remains. Yet run a google earth search for Tyre, take a look ,tell me what you see. It's STILL THERE! Tell me if it's a bald rock, show me the fisherman drying their nets. I see Roman ruins a small town and a pretty nice marina and yacht club there. Unfortunetly it's also a Hamas stronghold so Id recommend against any visits. Im inclined to say this is yet unfufilled prophecy and the King of Tyre is actually Satan and the Prince is actually the Anti-Christ leaving me to think Tyre or somewhere in the area the Anti-Christ may come from.

Just a thought.

Every dream and vision described in Daniel has usually no more than two verses following it an interpretation by the God of Heaven so leave it alone.

David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:13 am

I taught a class the book of Daniel. Here is a recap of what I spoke about. Some were giving me the deer in the headlights look others I could tell, thankfully, something clicked. It is only a recap it may seem somewhat brief in nature but it was intended for the class.

Any questions or constructive criticism is welcome

Thank you for allowing me to discuss the book of Daniel with you last Sunday. I want to briefly clarify a few points we talked about.

When we read Daniel chapter 2 we discovered several things, what the king had dreamed and Gods interpretation of the dream. The dream and the interpretation were revealed to Daniel after he and his companions inquired of God. Daniel explained both dream and the interpretation to king Nebuchad-nezzer.

If we follow along what is written we should find ourselves concerned with the fourth kingdom as it was given the greatest detail and is yet to be fulfilled. From God’s interpretation of the image we’re able to discern at least two things about the 4th kingdom.

1. Its nature; strength of iron, yet being fragile and divided. “And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay.” Daniel 2: 40-43

2. The time of its existence, being when Messiah returns. “And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.” Daniel 2: 44

Many have construed the word “divided” to mean an arithmetical division of the fourth kingdom. But simple math dogmatically proves one part being equally divided leave us with two parts. However I must remind you God specifically numbered them 1 thru 4, knowing this we are compelled to look elsewhere for an answer. Thankfully, we have scriptural support that best describes what a divided kingdom means.

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: (Mathew 12:25).

We find similar examples concerning ‘divided kingdoms’ in Mathew 12:26, 27, 35; Mark 3:24, 25, 26 and Luke 11:17, 18; 12:52. Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines division of this nature as one of disunion; discord; variance; difference. So, unless there is in the kingdom like minded people abiding in one doctrine it will invariably come to an end and be destroyed.

I have been taught by some the 4th kingdom is Rome. But there is nothing in scripture to indicate this. The Roman Empire no longer exists, it is a thing of the past and scripturally we’ve learned the last kingdom will not return but be brought to desolation. God never names the 4th kingdom so the question must be asked, “By whose authority do those who say it is Roman add to what God Himself has already interpreted?” That question alone should cause us to look to scripture for an answer and not a commentary. In later chapters of Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation we can pretty much pin point this location. In chapter two some insight is gained into the general location of the 4th kingdom, by the very thoughts king Nebuchad-nezzer had on his mind before he went to bed.

As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. (Daniel 2:29)

Think about it, king Nebuchad-nezzar had been given dominion over the entire world. What king after having been given so much would not think to ask the question what will happen after I am gone? What will become of my kingdom in latter days? Well lo’ and behold God gave him an answer in a dream. Nebuchad-nezzer’s kingdom was located is Babylon (head), it was then given to the Madai-Persian kings (breast and arms), later to Alexander (belly and thighs), and finally to the fourth kingdom (legs and feet) that will come to occupy Babylon. Thus we have a clue that the 4th kingdom will have a presence in the Middle East.

Now I have a question for you history buffs. Did Rome ever occupy Babylon?

There also seemed to be an issue regarding when God establishes His Kingdom on earth and rules from the Throne of David. To help clarify the time frame of when this happens, it comes AFTER what is known as ‘Daniels 70th week’ or ‘the last week in Daniel’ in during which time the 4th kingdom reigns. To keep it short and much to the point, from the time the order went out to rebuild Jerusalem, to when it was restored is 7 weeks (49 years). From the time Jerusalem was restored to Messiah the Prince (when Christ was rejected) is 62 weeks (434 years) for a grand total of 69 weeks (7+ 62=69 weeks). Now it appears the great clock has stopped as the 70th week has yet to arrive. I contend the gap in time between the 69th and 70th week is Gods patience made manifest.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2Peter 3:9).

The 70th week (7 years) will start the day Anti-Christ (a.k.a. The King of the North, Abaddon, and the Desolator) makes a covenant with many, and so the clock begins again. This covenant will last 1260 days (3.5 years) during which time it is thought the Temple will be rebuilt and they will cry peace and safety, peace and safety! But in the middle of the week the king of the north breaks the covenant. Causes sacrifice and oblation to cease and the overspreading abomination of desolation thus beginning Great Tribulation lasting for an additional 1260 days after which the 70th week ends. In Daniel Chapter 11 we are told of an additional month of days AFTER the tribulation.

Reading from Mathew 24:29 we find certain events begin immediately after the tribulation, We see God pouring out His wrath and His second coming. It is only after this, the reign of the Gentile kingdoms will come to an end, never again to trodden down Jerusalem as the God of Israel will have established His Kingdom that will last forever.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:14)

I could go on ironing out the timeline of these events and I’d be happy to do so at a later date, in essence I want to show people where to look so that they will not be caught unawares. We need to be “Semper Gumby” (always flexible) for if we look too long in one place it will cause us to become complacent, stiff and lowers our guard. Being watchful is a continuous activity, an action which requires more than standing around waiting for something to happen.

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:13 pm

I don't think Rome has anything to do with what is written in Daniel's account of the image and beast kingdom dreams. From what I have read king Nebuchad-nezzar asked (Daniel 2:29) what will happen in latter days?. I believe that question is in regard to his kingdom for we read in later chapters his kingdom in particular being given over to others.

I will agree Rome did step into Syria and controlled certain portions of land bordering the Great Sea. But it never did occupy the kingdom of Nebuchad-nezzar a.k.a. the land of the Chaldeans. But it doesn't mean they ruled over the former kingdom of Nebuchad-nezzar. That would be like someone calling the United States the Kingdom of Cuba because Raul occupied Florida :)

What I gain from Daniel, it begins with the image or "big picture' so to speak. Whether the 4th kingdom is described as part of the image or a beast it is the same. Reading thru Daniel greater and greater detailed information is gained regarding the fourth kingdom. In chapter 11 I read what seems to fill in the time between the third and fourth kingdoms described elsewhere in Daniel. Begininng with with the defeat of Cyrus by Alexander both of which occupied the physical kingdom Babylon. Then from the division of the Greek empire certain kings known as the king of the north I believe are the ones ruling over "the land of the Chaldeans" (Ezekiel 12:13) up until the vile one spoken of in verse 21 which rules over the 4th spoken of in image and beast visions, after which comes Christ's return.

The kings of the north before the one spoken of in verse 21 are for lack of better words 'lessor' kings of the north which I contend ruled Nebuchad-nezzar's old kingdom between the time the Greek empire awas divided and Anti-Christ (v21). In fact when I count those kings of the north in chapter 11 I'm certain there are 4 separate ones spoken of and quite possibly a 5th but Im still working on that. If there are five recorded then those five plus the Greek, Madai-Persian and Babylon would equal eight which may also explain Revlation 17. Yet on the same token if one can only count four we could also argue then there are seven the eight being of the seventh. But hey thats another day and just me taking a shot in the dark as well

As I told the class we shouldn't overly concern ourselves with the past. I think its fun looking into these things and Ive learned more here at Joels than any other time in my life. But look where God draws your attention too when you read Daniel it is the fourth kingdom the one yet to be fulfilled. I'm certain we can all agree what we see today fits what Christ specifically warned us of.

Go out and warn others, not to stir up panic but to encourage one another to be watchful. Keep those lamps filled with oil!

I tend to think the book of Daniel stems from a particular question a king had before he went nighty nite what is going to happen to my kingdom when I am gone? I've been kicking this around for a few days now.

1st Babylon
2nd Madai-Persians
3rd Greek
4th king of the north (Daniel 11:4-8)???????????
5th king of the north (Daniel 11:4-8 )???????????
6th king of the north (Daniel 11:9-19)
7th king of the north (Daniel 11:20) Seems to fit the seventh spoken of in Revelation 17 in that he is arpund for only a short time.
8th king of the north (Daniel 11:21-45). Verse 21 start 70th week, verse 29 mid-week, verse 45 end of the 70th week.

The question for me still remains whether there are 2 different kings of the north spoken of between verses 4-8 or just 1.

I also thought it interesting the city of Tyre, according to the maps I have, fall within the bounds of the land of the Chaldeans. Read the lamentation taken up against the Prince and King of Tyre tell me who do you think they are?

Judah9
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby Judah9 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:16 am

wow, thank you david. i like the different views and thoughts on these things. it is funny how god made us all. we all have different interest and different things that strike our attention. out of all that you wrote what i liked the most was (The King of the North, Abaddon, and the Desolator) makes a covenant with many) i don't what to get off of the subject that you all have for this post, but can you tell me how you connected the the king of the north with abaddon?

oh, you said: I also thought it interesting the city of Tyre, according to the maps I have, fall within the bounds of the land of the Chaldeans. Read the lamentation taken up against the Prince and King of Tyre tell me who do you think they are?

i will look that over.

thank you

David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:09 am

Abaddon is a.k.a. the destroyer.

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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:29 am

wow, thank you david. i like the different views and thoughts on these things. it is funny how god made us all. we all have different interest and different things that strike our attention.


I know I am going out on a limb here, Im not telling you these things as just a matter of a differing opinion that we all should be tolerent of , it is a warning.

Judah9
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby Judah9 » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:09 pm

I know I am going out on a limb here,

why would say that?


Im not telling you these things as just a matter of a differing opinion that we all should be tolerent of , it is a warning.

explain please

it may be that i have misrepresented something some where......

David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:20 am


David
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Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:16 am

Hi Judah9 sorry for being sarcasstic it was an improper response that only a butthead like self could have given and Im sorry for taking so long to say so.. Moving right along I do have some new things to share with ya'all

INTRODUCTION TO THE KING OF THE NORTH a.k.a. KING OF BABYLON

Several years ago a bible teacher taught me finding the truth of Gods word is to compare scripture with scripture and spend time in prayer asking for the understanding of it. Divine revelation needs no proof, so you do not need a library of books to study the Holy Bible, it is it's own best commentator and interpreter. As Dr. Howard A. Kelly (Professor at John Hopkins University) once said "The very best way to study the Bible is simply to read it daily with close attention and with prayer to see the light that shines from it's pages, to meditate upon it, and to continue to read it until it works itself, its words, its expressions, its teachings, its habits of thought, and its presentation of God and His Christ into the very warp and woof of ones being".

Yet book shelves everywhere are filled with a multitude of varying opinions, interpretations, and advice even those found inside our study bibles and church services. I fear the vast majority of these renderings do not rely wholly on the truth rather they obviously disregard it or worse by subtle distortion. Both can introduce the imaginations of men diverting your attention from the accuracy and purity of Gods word. Now they may be helpful to some, as some books are to me, as it could actually inspire some to read God's word after wards to find the truth of the matter. Those that do I think it can sometimes make biblical education all the more difficult. As no matter how learned one is, or what books are read or how eloquent a teacher speaks. After all of this study and information gathering one then must, without fail, go to scripture to see if the things learned are actually so. Twice the reading!

For many of us here we have gone over the Book of Daniel with a fine tooth comb, I still do. Yet, instead of thinking as Professor Hopkins and looking deeper into God's word for answers, when I didn't know something I had tendency to open a commentary or history book for an answer.

Let me begin with the use of an analogy. I used to interdict narcotics coming into the Southeast U.S. years ago. Sometimes I would with experience alone find the narcotics and not necessarily by following the rules of legal search and seizure. There were times I was interested more in the end result than explaining how I went about discovering it.

I think this is the same thing I have here. The 'culprit' (4th kingdom) I think has been found out but have we really been able to convince the judge how we went about finding it. Take for instance my previous post on Daniel chapter 2. Like others here I agree the 4th kingdom is a middle eastern country. But to fill in the voids leading up to it I used old schools of thought to make it fit. Like commentators of days gone by, I believed the third kingdom to be Alexander's Greek Empire and like them, I believed it was the Greek kingdom which was divided four ways. I suspect many agree with what I wrote since we have been 'trained' for years to think this way and it does in some contrived way seem to make sense.

What is important for us to know here is I based all of what I wrote from high school history books, commentaries and someone else's opinion. Only lately, have I asked the questions where in God's word does it say Alexander the Great shall bear rule over the earth ? Where is it written the Greek Empire will be the kingdom divided by the four winds of heaven? Some say Rome is the fourth kingdom because historically it followed the Greek. Truly, it is historical as any but is it biblical? But what if it isn't Alexander's Greek Empire spoken of in the bible would that make a difference to others how they look at the identity fourth kingdom?

Admittedly not too much has changed since my previous thoughts on the great image of Nebuchad-nezzars dream until you the section on the third kingdom. But let me remind you again though I cannot adequately stress the importance and necessity to be as the Berean's and search the scriptures to see if these things I write are so. The God of Heaven gave us His written word that we may learn of His will and plan for salvation not by listening to one man or guru. Together we must read the Holy Bible and just as importantly beseech its author for wisdom and understanding, which only He can provide.

BEHOLD A GREAT IMAGE

The Book of Daniel gives us one of the most complete pictures of the Anti-Christ kingdom and here is where we will discover what the God of Heaven has written about the image, and beast kingdoms.

In the beginning chapters we read King Nebuchad-nezzar dreamed dreams where with his spirit was troubled and he couldn't sleep. So troubled was the king he commanded his Magicians, Astrologers, Sorcerers, and Chaldeans to reveal the secret of the thing that had gone from him. But none of these men could tell the king what he had dreamed nor the interpretation of it. Unable to give him what he demanded they were to be put to death.

As the kings decree became known throughout the land, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah, and his companions desired to the mercies of the God of heaven concerning the secret. For God has the power to reveal it and He did so in a night vision (Daniel 2:19-23) note only afterwards did Daniel dare approach the king with the answer.

Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:31-35


It is imperative that we understand that following every dream or vision written in the Book of Daniel is an interpretation given by none other than the God of Heaven Himself either directly or via one His messengers. The common school of thought in almost every commentary I've read describes a portion verses 31-35 as Roman. But herein lies a grievous problem, what is written in those verses is only a description of that thing which had gone from king Nebuchad-nezzar, the dream itself! Absolutely nothing contained in these verses has been left to our imagination as Daniel and his companions have already inquired of God concerning the secret of the dream. And they received the answers to both of king Nebuchad-nezzer’s questions namely what was it I had dreamed AND the interpretation thereof.

Anyone with an ounce of patience will find in the next verse after every dream or vision in the book of Daniel is it's interpretation. Knowing then these are given by the God of Heaven Himself either directly or via one of His messengers. Does anyone think he really needs our input or help by adding to or taking from what He has already said?

This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. Daniel 2:36

THOU ART THIS HEAD OF GOLD

Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:37 thru 44

Based upon God's interpretation contained above (verses 37 thru 44). If we must name the first kingdom I believe it most likely would be Babylonian as it is said Nebuchad-nezzar reigned as its king.

The next two kingdoms have very little information about them, or do they?. From what I can gather about the second kingdom from this interpretation I only find it was inferior to the first. One would think of Belshazzar as he is the second king of Babylon written of in the Book of Daniel. There is no evidence in this or other books of the bible that he or his kingdom was ever held in as high regard as his predecessor. He had what appeared to be a much less stately manner about him as we read of the party he threw for his pleasure using the temple instruments. Belshazzar had not a humble heart (Daniel 5:22-23). I think it was not the size of his kingdom's border that mattered rather it was because of his heart and behavior he was considered inferior to his father king Nebuchad-nezzar.

Now we come to the third kingdom! This is interesting, as it appears to be identical to Nebuchad-nezzar's in that it too will bear rule over all the earth. Using scripture alone as the commentator and interpreter, there is, to the best of my knowledge, only one other kingdom written of to ever be specifically granted such power and title. But it was not granted by men, as some do, giving it to Alexander the Great and his Grecian Empire. No-no, this authority was granted in writing by the God of Heaven Himself. After I read Ezra 1:1-2, I now believe the identity of the third kingdom to be that of Cyrus king of Persia it is he who had been given the authority over all the kingdoms on earth, this same Cyrus known also as king of Babylon (Ezra 5:13). And unlike king Alexander is at least mentioned specifically by name and authority in scripture.

So far we have the names of three kings; one specifically granted rule over all the kingdoms of earth, another was given the same kingdom though he is considered inferior and then one specific Persian man who is granted rule over all the kingdoms of earth. All three of these men are known scripturally in their own time as a king of geographical Babylon.

Reading Daniel 11:2, I find four more, though unnamed, kings will rise up from Persia, and if my math is correct, will total seven kings written of so far in the Book of Daniel. Consider that if the first three kings were known as kings of Babylon wouldn't it then be acceptable to consider the next four would hold the same title too.

In Revelation 17 we see there is diffenetly a relationship seen between Babylon and seven kings.

And here (is) the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings five are fallen, and one is, (and) the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was , and is not, even he is the eight, and is of the seven, and go into perdition. Revelation 17:9 -11.

Do we have enough scriptural support and wisdom to finally understand where Anti-Christ will reign? I contend he, the eighth king in Revelation 17:10 "is of the seven". Like the seven kings of the north before him, this king will not reign in Washington D.C., Ankara, Rome or Moscow. No-no he will I think actually be a king of physical Babylon.

In Daniel chapter 8. We read of a a battle happening at the time of the end between the Madi and Persian kings and that of the king of Javan . We see here the speed and ferocity with which Javan came against these middle eastern kings who stirred up all against his realm. Later four notable horns arise from the aftermath of this battle and out of one of them "when the time of the transgressors have come full" comes the little horn.

In Daniel chapter 11 I believe we are told it is the seventh king to arise from Persia who will stir up all against the realm of Javan. And it appears to be speaking of the same battle described in chapter 8. However in chapter 11 I think what we have in greater detail is the aftermath of that battle. The rise, conflicts, and fall of the fourth kingdom a period of time I would call 'the time of the transgressors' which eventually culminates in the vile king (a.k.a. little horn). When we read Revelation 17:10, which if I'm not mistaken, was given to John around 60 A.D. not only has the seventh king not come yet but king Alexander had long since been dead and buried.

Considering todays events in that region of the world is it possible we are now living at the appointed time of the end? Are we witnessing the realm of Javan in action in the middle east? Forces from the United States, Poland, Germany, Italy, Greece, Turkey, France, Britain and other lands where the tribes of Javan are thought to have migrated (see Genesis 10 and the Table of Nations online) establishing kings and kingdoms in that region stand up for them. Later when their power is broken will we see the rise the 4th kingdom and eventually the little horn. Just a thought.

Finally we come to the fourth kingdom, This I think rises in the aftermath of the battle between the kings of Madi, Persia and Javan. Like the others it has no name given to it either. But our attention should be drawn to the incredibly detailed description of it. Revealing possibly a number of kings represented by the number of toes and most certainly its nature and the time of its existence.

Leaning (I hope) solely on my God's interpretation, I find it is made of iron. Iron here simply stated represents strength, as this kingdom will be able to 'break into pieces and subdue all things and bruise'. In verse 41 we read the feet and toes are made of part potters clay and part iron. This interpreted in verse 42-43 tells us the 4th kingdom will not only have the strength of iron but it will also be divided. Now most romanist commentators have expressed the word 'divided' to mean an arithmetical division as when the late Roman empire was divided out of necessity for survival around 365 A.D. into two, an eastern and western region each with it's own capital but still a Roman empire. Or as some even say the feet represent a fifth kingdom but I must remind them God specifically numbered them one thru four.

But again, when I compare scripture with scripture I find when God speaks of a divided kingdom it appears to mean (1) to disunite in opinion or interest; to make discordant. He gives several examples of a 'divided' kingdom and it's end; If a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom can not stand, Mark 3:2; Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand, Matthew 12:25; Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth, Luke 11:15.b. As we read further we see this fourth kingdom falling to its demise, when the stone cut without hands strikes it.

((1) Webster's 1828 Dictionary)

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. This I have trouble with and I'm not certain what it means it is obviously describing the people of the fourth kingdom. Possibly meaning they dwell with us, they may even be your neighbor but will keep themselves separate from the rest of us by reason of faith, business or politics. But honestly, that sounds too much like the "red menace" and McCarthyism. Another idea, I favor greatly, is they give in marriage causing their seed to mingle between the families of different tribes or nations within the fourth kingdom. However their nature still prevents them from being united or having love for one another. This at least re-enforces the idea and interpretation of a divided, disunited and discordant 4th kingdom or house. And it seems in keeping with those problems only a house divided such as the 4th kingdom will have (Daniel 11:6-7).

Regarding the time of it's existence I think is obvious and straight forward when the fourth kingdom will be in existence, when God returns to establish His kingdom "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,..." .

Any thoughts?

Judah9
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:22 am

Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby Judah9 » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:12 am

hi david,
i forget all about this post :)

1st: hope all is well with you and your family. hope you all had a wonderful thanksgiving and that your christmas and newyears will be even better.

don't know much if what any to say. you did very good in your post, thank you for that. i guess in the end all we all do have is speculation???? we think we know... we think we discerned the word rightly and ...... but we really just don't know. and yes!!!!! there are sooooooooo many books and thoughts on this or that verse.

but in reading your post.... again thank you! i saw something i never really paid attention to before. the rock from heaven will break up ALL the kingdoms. when one does look at all the commentaries and other stuff..... most let you know that these kingdoms (the ones in the past) have come and gone. but the rock will break in pieces all these kingdoms at one time and not over the years :?:

so are all these kingdoms in operation now :)

not asking you to answer... just wondering....

but other then that... my thoughts are few and far between... sorry :(

but keep them coming my friend. i enjoy the reading and the pondering.

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Sat Dec 19, 2009 9:55 am

Merry Christmas to you Judah9 enjoy these days as we remember the birth of our Lord.

don't know much if what any to say. you did very good in your post, thank you for that. i guess in the end all we all do have is speculation???? we think we know... we think we discerned the word rightly and ...... but we really just don't know. and yes!!!!! there are sooooooooo many books and thoughts on this or that verse.


I noted your comment about all we have in the end is speculation. I must say Gods word is the truth and he has given it to us to read for some very specific reasons, one of them that comes to mind among others is For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope..

I think speculation only arises when all we do is read what others say about His word and never investigate the matter ourselves. We must pray over the matters and speak to others about these things and discuss His word. But in order to discuss His word we must read it, assemble with other believers either in a building, outdoors, or even here on Jims website. Speculation will begin to fade if not outright disappear as we share what we learned with one another. Will we ever know everything? One day we will but it will be according to His will not ours we must be patient too.

Your job is not speculate rather go search the scriptures, (john wayne voice on) go ahead pilgim prove me wrong! (john wayne voice off) ;). You just may do so and then share what you know here thats when WE begin learning.

David
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:38 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Nebuchadnezzar's Dream of the Image - Daniel 2

Postby David » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:39 pm

Hi gents and ladies,

Another question remains for me. What about the seventy week period. I begining to think there is no so called gap in time between the third and fourth kingdoms anymore. Me thinks it's a straight shot through no parking, no meandering, no loitering, no time is wasted. But where to begin with this. I know when Daniel was told of this portion of prophecy he was reading Jerimiah. Jerimiah seems to hammer away at a 70 year period of time. Does the seventy weeks in Daniel actually means seventy years? Does the weeks spoken of mean the feast of weeks which would equate to seventy years? Or is it really a week of years which would equate to 490 years? Help me out gents and ladies.

If after the battle between the realm of Javan and the kings of Madi and Persia will there be 490 years or 70 years? In quiring minds want to know.

Oh one more thing Im sure some have been wondering where I got Javan from and what happened to Darius?

When you read the text in Hebrew you will find the word Yaw-vawn (Javan) the word the translators used for Javan was Grecian. However Javan is identified as those tribes occupying the Isles of the Gentiles in Genesis 10. We are speaking of family lines stemming from Noah and his sons of which there is no Greek the son of Japeth to found anywhere in the bible. It is one big family affair complete with relatives arguing over land and inheritence.

Think about that for a moment now too. Since the great flood the world was re-populated by Noah and his sons. That would mean Judah9 you and me are in some form or fashion all blood relations. Wow thats mind boggling when I think about that sometimes. It would also mean there are no such thing as different races.

But now who is this Darius? There are no records in any of our history or in scripture that says he was ever a king of Babylon especially since we see in Daniel 6:28 that he reigned during the same period as Cyrus. Reigning over something does not nessecarily mean you are THE king he could have been the chief cook and bottle washer for all I know. We also know as a scriptural fact that it was Cyrus whom God gave the authority to bear rule over ALL the kingdoms of the earth in addition to holding the title of king of Babylon which would obviously rule out the possibilty of two kings of Babylon at the same time. Also reading the The History and Destruction of Bel and the Dragon it seems in that account that it was actually Cyrus who cast Daniel into the lions den. There are also some who believe Darius and Cyrus are one and the same as kings in those days took or were known by the local population by different names.

Which leads me to believe there were 3 named kings of Babylon Nebuchad-nezzar, Belshazzr, and Cyrus followed by four unamed kings yet to rise up in Persia. The other point I’d like to bring up was the three named kings all had something to with the Temple in Jerusalem. Nebuchad-nezzar the destruction of it, Belshazzar the misuse of its instruments, and Cyrus the rebuilding of it. I suspect we may find the other four had something to do with it as well, then again, maybe not.


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