leaders, Gurus, & "secret" societies

"And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." 1 John 5:19 - -

Discuss the Gurus and Brotherhoods who are preparing the world for the ultimate Guru.
grye

leaders, Gurus, & "secret" societies

Postby grye » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:07 pm

Hello there. i am sorry that this will be a 1-time posting, but I have a lot of demands on my attention... I found your board randomly & just thought you might benefit or otherwise appreciate my input, for what it's worth.

1st & maybe most important, you all seem to be people of great faith and of great & true conviction of that faith...
Again, for what it's worth, they aren't mine, but if they are true to you, as they seem, then may the road ahead of you be free of harm !-)
I respect you highly for your dedications & convictions.

OK. The trigger for my posting was your list of members of "secret" societies. Specifically Bill Bradly, but there are others that were of interest, which, combined, prompted this posting.

1) None of the Bush's are Freemasons. Yes Skull & Bones, which have Masonic undertones, but not they neither are Masons. The S&Bs might have, like many others, somehow off-shot from Freemasonry, & not as a whole but were created by (often misguided) individuals & they in no way are supported by, part of, or recognized at all fraternally by Freemasonry.

2) Good of you to recognize that Walt Disney et. al. were DeMolay, but again, NOT Freemasons, just as you (unfortunately) group S&Bs with Freemasons, but do not mistake them for each-other. Which brings up a point I'll address in a sec.

3) Of Bill Bradley: I do not know him personally, so I could not speak of him such. But my Grandfather, a Mason, did. They had frequent contact. My grandfather was quite a conservationist in NJ & Bill's immediate residential proximity to ours resulted in Bill's discussing many of those issues he was faced with as Senator of NJ with my grandfather. So I guess between that & his actions as Senator I have a more educated respect for him than some...

4) Many of the people on your list were actually significant & somewhat undebatably great people. I could see you might have a problem with Ben Franklin, he being a Deist & not subscribing to your particular theism, but he did accomplish some great deeds, & that from humble origins. These people's membership in any fraternal group only aided & often prompted their great deeds. I recognize that you might be just saying "look at all these names you will recognize, then look at the groups they belonged to" but the funny thing is, I see roughly a better representation than worse. I'm often amazed that a man like Ben, a humble printer, could be, among other things, a catalyst for the creation of America's AND France's constitutions...

I agree whole-heartedly with your noticing that XY&Z people have this or that [fraternal relation] in common.
I think part of that which differentiates us humans with other things on this planet is our intellect, which is partly our ability to recognize patterns, like these associations, & weave them with others.
This is NOT talking about our being created in the Lord's image, which is ANOTHER thing that might differentiate us humans.
At any rate, that's for a different, to me, discussion, which I'm pretty confident y'all will get into/are in ;-)

Anyway, I hope this was not somehow negative for you.
If it was in any way, my deepest apologies.
My your road ahead be be filled with happiness.

G-Rye

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G-Rye

Postby jimbaum » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:21 pm

G-Rye,

I appreciate your contribution to our discussions. I will ponder your comments and I welcome anyone else's comments on your comment!

Lord bless you, Jim B.

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Postby wackzingo » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:41 am

G-Rye and Jim,

I don't understand why it makes any difference why a persons association with a particular group makes any difference. If we looked at the Apostle Paul today many would point to the fact that he was a pharisee. Sometimes I think we hold people who are regarded as Christian leaders or Guru's to a higher standard. Don't get me wrong, anyone who teaches and leads in the body of Christ will be held to stricter judgment when they stand before Christ. But, as for us holding them to a higher standard, I don't think that is right. If I say something stupid or unbiblical no one (atleast I hope not) is writing it down or recording it. But, these people who are leaders, guru's, pastors... have their words written down, recorded and played over and over again. All this to say, don't forget that these people make mistakes just like we do, and just because they said something unbiblical one time does not mean they are not a christian or even less of a chrisian because they once may have held an unbiblical view in a certain area. I can't count how many times I said something I believed only to find myself questioning it the next day. These people may have been associated with a particular unbiblical group or said somethign unbiblical and I fear we criticize them on a position they may no longer hold to. I think we would all benefit more if rather warning people to stay away from these people, we teach the Word and nothing more. One example before I finish is...Many of the bibles today have errors, the King James has translation errors, I know their are errors and I do my best to make myself aware of them but I don't stay away from it altogether. Then there are translations such as the TNIV that has to many serious translation errors, that translation I avoid. This is long but I trust my point got through.

zach

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Teaching the Word, including warning

Postby jimbaum » Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:01 am

Teaching the Word, including warning

Zach, you ask some questions that come up fairly regularly.

I agree that we should not write off friends or associates just because they said something wrong in the past. I wouldn't have any friends myself in that case. But a different issue is how influential leaders are publicly and consistently leading their followers in unbiblical directions.

There are many warnings in the Bible to not be deceived. If we love people we will warn people. The Bible warns against counterfeits. The Bible warns against the occult. Occult brotherhoods are examples of the rebellion of mankind against God. I recommend that followers of Jesus not join occult brotherhoods. A leader who shares the vision of an occult brotherhood and professes to trust and obey Jesus is either immature or a deceiver. The vision of the occult brotherhoods is one of a heaven-on-earth system led by an elite.

As I say on my index page, we are in a time when the whole world is being united in a "Tower of Babel" vision of Global Unity based on a false peace and a disregard for the truth, it is tragic indeed that many of our most respected Evangelical celebrities are taking part in leading their followers in this same direction.

As I say on my "About This Site" page, some people may be concerned that I criticize various individuals, organizations, movements, etc. But we are called to Love the Truth and to Contend for the Faith. Everything I've put on my website deals with something I consider to be very serious as to "Who is Jesus Christ?" and "What is the Gospel?". I have not tried to say who is a Christian and who is not. I've simply tried to point out the many ways that Christians are being deceived. When I became a Christian about 29 years ago, I was taught basic truths of God's Word as to who Jesus is and what is the gospel. Over the years I've been amazed at how there has been a continual perverting of these truths within Evangelical Christianity.

Look at the New Testament! Look at the very words of Jesus! They are written in the format of 1) This is what the world says, 2) This is what God says, 3) Reject what the world says and return to a pure devotion to Jesus Christ. (From "What do you want to be known for?")

(From another article on this site) Most definitely, our Lord Jesus has given us, "all things that pertain unto life and godliness". (2 Peter 1:3). The warnings of scripture are many. Let's encourage one another to apply them as world history unfolds. You cannot obey the word of God in applying the warnings of the Bible unless you are willing to examine what men have said and done and compare it to what God says. And when men say or do something contrary to scripture we must trust the Lord for wisdom to recognize it, warn about it, and reject it, in obedience to our Lord. This is exactly what much of the New Testament is about. God did not give us the Bible to be read in a vacuum. The word of God is given to be APPLIED; to enable us to be in the world but not of the world.

I appreciate being able to discuss these very important questions! Such discussions are acts of love among the brethren.

Jim B.

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Postby wackzingo » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:01 am

Jim,

Once again I think we agree more than we disagree. But, I think the reason some people disagree you so much and get turned off to what you have to say because they aren't sure where you stand. I think sometimes you seem legalistic which I don't believe you are. But I think you come across that way sometimes. For example, in your article "Reverend? Pastor? His Holiness? Bagwan?" you emphasize "do not be called 'Rabbi'" "Do not call anyone on earth your father" and "And do not be called teachers". The problem here is I don't know if your being legalistic and completely against referring to anyone as a pastor or "my pastor/s" or are you trying to point out the context in which Jesus spoke this. Here Jesus was making a point that "they must not assume the authority and dominion implied in those names; they must not be magisterial, nor domineer over their brethren, or over God's heritage, as if they had dominion over the faith of Christians: what they received of the Lord, all must receive from them; but in other things they must not make their opinions and wills a rule and standard to all other people, to be admitted with an implicit obedience."

"Christ is our Master, our Teacher, our Guide. Christ only is our Master, ministers are but ushers in the school. Christ only is the Master, the great Prophet, whom we must hear, and be ruled and overruled by; whose word must be an oracle and a law to us; Verily I say unto you, must be enough to us. And if he only be our Master, then for his ministers to set up for dictators, and to pretend to a supremacy and an infallibility, is a daring usurpation of that honour of Christ which he will not give to another."---Adam Clarke Commentary.

I tell people that Tim and Jeff are my pastors. When I was at the Nazarene church I referred to Jerry as My pastor. I did not however, think of, or refer to him as anything more than one who God has placed over me as a teacher and shepherd. God alone was and is my final authority on all issues. But as I mention before Jerry began to do what was Jesus warned about here in this passage. It became "I'm the pastor, I'm your leader" mentality. He said in his office the time we met before I left, "Good leaders are good followers" because I often questioned him on certain issues. This is where it would be wrong for me to go along with Him as if he were my master. I think explaining your reasoning more in your articles would go along way in helping people understand where the issues are. It's never the acts of referring to someone by a title or such that make a man unclean, it's the attitude of the heart that placed a man above God that does.

Again, I love reading your site because I find myself saying "Your crazy Jim..." then "Wait....maybe he's right..." and then sometimes "I must be crazy too because I think I agree." LOL.

In Christ Zach

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Postby jimbaum » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:32 am

Zach,

I love you, brother! It is a privilege to be a part of the Bride of Christ with you. It's a blessing to wrestle with the truth of God's word together. The Lord uses our fellowship to help sort things out: What does the Bible say? How do we apply it in being in the world but not of the world.

I do not want to be legalistic and I do not want to be licentious. I want to trust and obey Jesus and walk in the freedom that He has called us to. I want to encourage others to trust and obey Jesus and walk in freedom and I want to give others room to draw the line differently in disputable matters.

May the Lord give me wisdom about your comments and I look forward to continuing our discussion.

Jim

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Using titles such as Reverend or Pastor or His Holiness

Postby jimbaum » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:54 am

Using titles such as Reverend or Pastor or His Holiness

I think it is reasonable to explore in the New Testament whether we should assign such titles to men.

First, are there any verses in the New Testament that explicitly command us to assign such titles?

Next, are there any verses in the New Testament that explicitly prohibit such titles?

If there is a definite answer to the above, then the question is settled. If not, then the issue is a disputable matter.

If it is a disputable matter, then we ought to reason with one another out of the scriptures to apply principles that most edify the Body of Christ, the assembly of believers.

Are there any New Testament verses that seem to encourage the use of such titles?

Are there any New Testament verses that seem to discourage the use of such titles?

Are there any verses that support or oppose the use of such titles by way of giving principles that show that it would either edify the assembly or detract from the assembly?

Jim B.

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Postby wackzingo » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:31 am

Jim,

I haven't personally searched the scriptures much on this topic. I understand what you're saying and I completely agree that the use of such titles would and are better off not used. I have read the verses that you have stated already and I those are the reason that I believe that the use of such titles are not the best to use. But, having said that, the struggle I have is that regardless of what titles I use, the fact stays the same that in any local church assembly there are always going to be one or two people who primarily do the teaching, correction, and visitations when people are sick, etc. These people are placed there by God, although they are not any better and don't have any more power than anyone else, they are still an authority that God has placed to teach and lead me. I suppose its mostly due to "religion" and "church history" that I refer to these people as pastors. I'm not saying its the best things, but if I were to refer to them as elder or something along that lines, it means nothing different to me other than a different sound. My mom hates the phrase "that sucks" but she has no problem with "that stinks" same meaning, different words. I'll have to pray about this and read the bible a little more on this topic. Thanks again.

Zach


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