Gurus

How are professing Evangelical Christians being deceived?
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wackzingo
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Gurus

Post by wackzingo »

Jim,

It appears to me that you seem to have a problem with people who are considered what you call gurus, or as I call them Christian leaders. I completely understand and agree that Christians too often will value the opinion of a Christian leader more than the Word of God. But it seems to me that just because someone is considered a guru or leader you thinks they are doing something wrong. I don't believe the bible teaches that because people look-up too or value their opinion that the "Guru or Leader" is wrong. I think warning needs to be put to the people to follow God and not a man rather than warn about the leaders or gurus. This isn't something new, there is nothing new under the sun. In the beginning of the New Testament some said "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ" but Paul rebuked the people not himself or Apollos or any others. The problem is not with the Gurus or leaders or even the people looking to these men for advice. The problem is when they value that persons opinion more than the Word of God. When they look to that person before they look to God. There are people i look to for direction when I'm not sure what I should do or for an opinion on something that bothers me. But I don't put that opinion higher than the Word o God. I don't look to those people as though they were my god. I listen to them, consider what they have to say to me, and then pray about it and check to see if it lines up with the word of God. That’s my 4 cents.

zach
jimbaum
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New Testament Leaders

Post by jimbaum »

Brother Zach! You are so kind to participate! You make good points. I support leaders such as elders and deacons in the local assembly. We ought to respect how our Lord uses these servants of God. We ought to want to follow them as they follow Lord.

I think there are important issues to discuss as to what impact celebrities have had on the modern church. Also, the concept of a guru is evil because that is one who usurps the position of Christ in people's lives.

Of course, just because some followers look to a leader as a guru does not necessarily mean that the leader is doing anything wrong. The followers who do that are guilty of idolatry. And then there are leaders, though, who cultivate a following that is unbiblical and that is wrong.

It is very important that followers of Jesus have the freedom to discuss such things! Jim B.
Last edited by jimbaum on Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jasmine

Post by Jasmine »

Isn't there a time when the people must be warned if someone is professing a false teaching ? Specificaly I think of Ezeikel 33 : 1- 6
and also in Acts 20 : 30 & 31 .

It would be such a very sad thing to have someone led astray by a false teacher if you could have warned that person before hand with the Scriptures .

I have encountered a 'guru ' of sorts in our own church . Lovingly , three times I have tried to show him what he is teaching is not from the Bible .
He refuses to listen . So it seems the only recourse is to warn his students by using the Bible to counter act the false teachings .

If I'm wrong , please tell me how . As my hearts desire is to live a life that is pleasing to Jesus .
Guest

Post by Guest »

Jasmine,

There are people who blatantly teach false doctrines. Such as Jesus wasn't really God, or Homosexuality isn't wrong. Those things are very obviously wrong. However, there are things that aren't so clear like, can a person lose their salvation or in the case that we're discussing, is it wrong to be a pastor rather than one of many elders. In these cases where it isn't as clear I think we need to be careful in how we present our views.

If you look at cults there is "one" man who tells everyone what to do, he can't be questioned, he completely controls everything about their lives, and in these cases I think Jim is right to warn people about these types of leaders.

However, I don't think it's right to compare pastors who are the main pastor with others under him. Just because a person is a pastor doesn't mean he's controling them, expecially to the extent that a cult leader would. I look up to and really respect Jon Courson but Jim see it as nothing more than a business because there is a pastor rather than several elders, forgetting that there is a 150 elder board that can and does at time over rule his authority and who voted his son after 2 years of pastoring. Jon teaches the bible and he teaches correctly. We may have to agree to disagree on these issues, but I won't go around telling people that Jim is a false teacher or warning them not to listen to him because we disagree.

In Christ
zach
jimbaum
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Correcting False Teaching

Post by jimbaum »

Jasmine wrote
I have encountered a 'guru ' of sorts in our own church . Lovingly , three times I have tried to show him what he is teaching is not from the Bible .
He refuses to listen . So it seems the only recourse is to warn his students by using the Bible to counter act the false teachings .

If I'm wrong , please tell me how . As my hearts desire is to live a life that is pleasing to Jesus .
We are called to speak the truth in love. We are all called to be Acts 17:11 "Bereans". We all ought to be eager to reason with one another out of the scriptures with the purpose of edifying one another as opposed to trying to win arguments.

Jasmine, it is very Biblical to want to correct someone you believe is teaching unbiblical views.

And yet, while we attempt to stand for the truth, we must give each other the freedom to disagree. Sometimes it may be appropriate to state your view from scripture on the subject and then let it go for awhile, praying that the Lord would change that person, or you, or both!

I also recommend bringing up the subject with your elders, not to get the other person in trouble but to continue to explore the truth.

It's a privilege to take part in this aspect of the life of the Bride of Christ!

Jim B.
Last edited by jimbaum on Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jimbaum
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False Teaching & Disagreements

Post by jimbaum »

Brother Zach,

I agree that there are degrees of disagreements. Most certainly, I consider the most serious issues are those that deal with who Jesus is and what is the Gospel.

Among brother's in Christ we may disagree over how leaders should lead in the assembly and how the Bride of Christ should function. These are not as serious as issues of who Jesus is or what is the Gospel.

When it comes to who should lead in the Body of Christ and who should pastor the flock, I recommend that we consider the specific texts of the New Testament and compare the New Testament with our customs and human traditions.

Also, I agree that just because a person disagrees with another brother it doesn't mean that we write that brother off and tell people not to listen to that brother.

Your friend, Jim B.
wackzingo
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Post by wackzingo »

We agree on something. Actually, I agree with alot of what you say, I just don't agree to the extent you do. I completly agree with what you say about leaders that are controlling, or a one man show. The reason I left the church I was attending for 7 years was because I believed the pastor had lost focus on whats important.

The church wasn't growing and so rather than spend time praying and seeking the Lord I was told many times "Saddleback does this" or "Saddleback did that"(or insert any other well known mega-church). I recently wrote him an email and mentioned I rarely if ever heard him mention "this is where I feel the Lord is leading me." He told me one time when I said I disagreed with him, "Being a good leader means being a good follower."

I don't think he saw what he was doing from the same view I did. I believe that he really does want his church to be a strong healy church, but pastors are under pressure to have "big number" and they easily loose focus on whats important when there is just one person doing all the work.

Oh, is there a spell check on this board?

zach
jimbaum
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Post by jimbaum »

Zach,

I understand what you're saying and I've heard similar accounts many times.

The quote: "Being a good leader means being a good follower." There is actually truth to this of course and yet often times politically minded leaders and leaders with an elitist attitude toward the "laity" may use this as one of many cliches to keep you in your place.

May the Lord work in all of our lives to only care about trusting and obeying Him and encouraging and edifying His Bride.

I'm looking into getting a spell checker feature installed. Thanks for the suggestion, brother!

Jim B.
wackzingo
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Post by wackzingo »

When I was a younger, (I'm at that age where you begin to see your life from a distance and realize your no longer a child and you getting older) I was very good at spelling. People who knew me knew that spelling was something I did very well at. I won almost every spelling bee I entered. Then came computers and I learned to type abotu 45-55 wpm, and my spelling slowly went down hill. I don't bother anymore to think about how something is spelled because I just rely on spell checkers.

Thanks again Jim for the website and discussion board.

zach
jimbaum
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Spell Checke

Post by jimbaum »

Thanks, Zach, for the suggestion about the spell checker. I learned a lot trying to get it installed. I hope that it is working ok for everyone.

How far did you get in the spelling bee competition? Washington DC?

My youngest daughter did the home school spelling bee last year and I think she's doing it again this year.

Jim B.
wackzingo wrote:When I was a younger, (I'm at that age where you begin to see your life from a distance and realize your no longer a child and you getting older) I was very good at spelling. People who knew me knew that spelling was something I did very well at. I won almost every spelling bee I entered. Then came computers and I learned to type abotu 45-55 wpm, and my spelling slowly went down hill. I don't bother anymore to think about how something is spelled because I just rely on spell checkers.

Thanks again Jim for the website and discussion board.

zach
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