Whats been going in my brain lately

What does the Bible teach as to how we are to be the Body of Christ together? How shall a Biblical assembly be led? How should each of us take part? How shall we be disciples of Jesus together?
David
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Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:57 pm

I recently posted this in response to a question on another website regarding how far Christians should integrate into Federal Governement. Of course that post was the uncorrected form. This one, the one that should have been posted is a little bit more cleaned up. So be warned I sometimes struggle to get thoughts on paper indeed it is a hurdle for me to jump especially with all I've been thinking of lately.

I must say in all my bible study I keep coming across a recurring theme, that is to say, I don't think we were called to 'integrate' into anything here, on the contrary, as the new testement term "church" ekllesia means to call out or calling out, bid, call, forth aloud, but to where? Simply put I believe we have been called to go to our Father in Heaven who by the Blood of Yeshua His only Begotten Son has adopted us into His Kingdom!

Many of late are taking great pride in this country, and lifting up 'founding fathers' and the U.S. Constitution as their guide. But with all due respect to these men and documents which they wrote, does any follower in Messiah truely believe we require a piece of paper from these fathers to affirm our responsiblity towards God? From what I have observed this document has to date served primarily as an excuse for rebellion against those placed in authority. "REMEMBER" long before the these fathers wrote the U.S. Constitution YHVH laid the foundation and commanded us to live according to His will. We ought to realize, with or without that piece of paper we will always have the freedom, duty, and obligation, to live as He would have us to live and to say those things which ought to be said. But in no way start a fight, argue and rebel over it. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

As to your question how far should Christians integrate into the Federal government. Let me begin with, can or should we work in government, of course and why not? I served 24 years in the military, it can pay well, I learned much and we are to provide for family right? However, that word 'integrate' would seem to imply we become part of it or allowing it to become part of us causing one to become intangled in it. And becoming intangled in this world is something we as believers should be wary of and avoid (easier said than done sometimes)

Additionally, I find only two camps, peoples or nations if you will written of in Gods word, Gentile and Israel (strives with God). The new testement Greek word "Gentile" refers to someone other than a Jew. In Hebrew to be called a "Gentile" (goyim/go' ee) is to be called heathen, pagan, idolater and like the Greek word it too identifies a person/nation as someone other than a Jew or Israel.

What then is the U.S.? Frankly, I agree with the President when for whatever reason he said this is not a Christain nation. I know there are many living in this land who would argue that, yet how can they or others honestly claim it a to be so without some reference to Gods word, thereby proving it? Many have wondered of the role this nation will play in the end times. Some say being a "Christain nation" it is to defend Israel, and some, of whom I completely disagree with, have even implied it is a new Israel. Yet why then do we see this very day a nation "other than Israel" called the United States of America take a leading role with others in dividing His inheritence! This role will only lead to judgment (Joel 3:2). One then must ask just how much do I want to be a part of that?

Another thing I have been pondering is the meaning of "Jew". "The word "Jew" comes from , a name that means "praised" which is derived from the shoresh yadah, meaning (in the Hiphil) to give thanks, to laud, to praise. A true Jew, then, is one who lives in a praiseworthy attitude and manner according to God's standards." I think I now understand when Paul wrote to the Romans "he is not a Jew that is one outwardly, nor circumcision that outwardly in flesh; but he is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision of heart, in spirit, not in letter; of whom the praise is not from men, but from God".

Before we knew Christ we were once upon a time nothing more than dead men walking and without hope. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Think about that now, in times past we were Gentiles a.k.a. heathen, pagan, or someone other than a Jew, in the flesh, but now, by the blood of Yeshua we are made one. One elect, one chosen people. Unlike todays pont of view that sees two chosen one expecting to depart early while the other suffers tribulation (and they say the Jew is blinded). Nolonger are we divided by the middle wall of partition if believe but now we are one and members of the commonwealth of Israel. And it is from the Holy Place Jerusalem, The King of kings shall reign. So as commanded we should look to the coming of our King and His Kingdom, not to the kingdoms of this world and their doctrines as they shall fall and be no more.


Maybe it will be a nice autumn day when we will hear that trumpet sound. But thats another topic.

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Tue May 19, 2009 8:21 am

I would ike to clarify something here. There are I think 3 kinds of people (1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: ). Two 2 of them in the same boat without Messiah, Gentiles (heathen, pagen, devil worshippers) and Jews (circumsized in the flesh). The third which I mentioned above is the true Jew not so much consideredd as such because of family lines, heritage or birth nation, but by ones attitude and manner towards God. How else can a believer share in the common wealth of Israel? How else can the ONE chosen, ONE elect be explained?

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Fri May 29, 2009 6:41 am

Don't get me wrong about the 'true Jew' term. I was in times past a wild branch a friend of mine a Jew circumsized in the flesh both of us then were without Christ. But now we have been 'called out' (church) to be Christianos (followrs of Christ). The term true Jew does not mean I am now following traditions so common to Jews, nor am I going to start waving the Star of David from my home, neither will feel a need to watch Fiddler on the Roof over again and again. As none of these are of God's standards. That term was only derivived from a study of words used in Hebrew, Greek and English. Frankly I have no idea of my blood line I am just happy and content to be chosen of God to be called out from this wicked world nor partake of her sins.

I must again clarify about tradition, I speak of tradition as brought about by man. I am beginning to think we ought to keep the Feast days as those are His provided they are observed according to His standards and not done as some form of works. But rather out of love for the Lord and all the things He has done for us. But I am still learning about that.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I'm pretty sure God will not be checking your politcal party, church membership cards or taking DNA samples at the door.

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby jimbaum » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:38 pm

David,

I appreciate your thoughts and willingness to post even if there has not been much action here lately!

Jim B.

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:37 pm

No worries Jim there's been 87 or so views and can't believe it's just you and me lurking about here ;)

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Feast Days

Postby jimbaum » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:35 am

It's important to learn about the Feast Days but I recommend against considering them part of worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ in this age where Jew and Gentile believers have become the Ekklesia of Christ together.

The feasts are part of that Shadow of what was to come, completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament is the foundation of the New Testament.

The New Testament interprets the Old for us.

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:20 pm

I am just now 'diving' into this aspect of Gods word. What of the Feast of First Fruits then? Why was easter Sunday, eggs and bunny rabits used to replace what God had established? I agree Jim the Feasts were not for us to produce as works rather that we understand what He has done for us and most importantly cause is to be in remembrance and watchful. What happens when we forget God? We do just that we forget. Remembering them as God established them is I guess what Im trying to get at.


When you look at the time line of events

Christs cruxifiction was at the Passover Feast we partake in communion as a rememberence as He commanded.

Feast of Unleavened Bread his burial death has no hold on Him

Feast of First Fruits His acension into heaven.

Though no man knows the day or hour of His return we know everytime has it's season. I strongly suggest we look to Rosh Hoshanna (the Feast of Trumpets) and expect to see His return.

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:24 pm

Also I would like to add that I am reading an interesting book by Howard and Rosenthal 'The Feasts of the Lord" In my humble opinion suggested reading.

Love ya Jim thanks

David
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:06 am

More on observing Feast days

I tend to think there ought to be a desire to do the commandments of God it is I think an important aspect of a Christian (Greek for follower of Christ).

Have we not been commanded to keep certain feasts Leviticus 23:4? Where in the Bible did it say to no longer observe them? Even Messiah observed them the most known of these was the Passover feast which certain denominations call the the Lord's table or communion. Feast of Unleavend bread speaks that His body would not see physical the body see the ravages of death. The Feast of First Fruits; unfortunetly this one we see certain denomintions chase bunny rabbits, hide eggs and call it Easter. Shavuot is known to certain denomintions as Pentecost (Greek for fiftieth in otherwords fifty days after First Fruits). All of these Feasts many so called 'christian' pastors and church leaders say we have no need to observe yet they will follow their own traditons losely based on the very Feasts they condem.

Does observance of the Feasts save us? NO! They were NEVER inteneded as works of self-rightouesness rather we do them because we love the Lord that we REMEMBER Him. One day when we are perfected we will forever know Him and have His laws written in our hearts.

THIS IS THE NEW COVENANT ------> But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Many people equate the keeping of holy days with righteousness before God. Some will slip into synagoge for Yom Kippur, others to church for Christmas and Easter. They would like to believe that they are rightgeous in God's eyes for doing their religous 'duty'. God rebuked Israel for keeping the external requirments of the Law while disregarding a heart relationship with Him. "The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and calling of assemblies - I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates They are trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them" (Isiah 1:13-14; Amos 5:21)

But why would God hate the feast days when it was He who instituted them? Obviously He did not hate the feast days themselves but the hypocrtical manner in which they were kept. The people had the misunderstood and distorted God Law. They had abandoned a personal relationship with God. Instead they sought after self-righteousness through keeping the requirements of the Law. The outward requirements of the Law were meaningless without an inward relationship with the living God. It was for this reason that God commanded Israel "Hear O Israel The Lord your God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your strength. And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart (Dt 6:4-6). So important are these words that they begin the Shema, the most holy prayer within Judaism. They are also written on the doorposts of all observent Jews and in the tefillin worn on the forehead and forearm during prayer.

Many in Isiahs day believed they were righteous before God because they were religious - they kept the commandments, they prayed, they kept holy days. Today the overwelming majority of mankind , whether Jewish or Gentile, find themselves in an identical situation. Mistakenly believing that by keeping a list of religious rites or holidays will gain them acceptance in Gods sight.

The Bible likens the Feast Days to Shadows which prophetically point to the person and work of Yahushua - the Messiah of Israel. Together these Feasts outline the work of the Messiah from Calvary to the Messianic Kingdom. He alone is the source and substance, whereas the holy days are only shadows cast by His indelible mark in history.

This can be illustrated by a husband who returns home after a long journey. His heart may beat faster in anticipation, seeing an outline of his wife's shadow as she comes to the front door, but he does not embrace her shadow. There would be no satisfaction in that. Instead he steps through the doorway and embraces her in person rather than her shadow.

Yahushua proclaimed "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" Are you chasing shadows, or are have you fully embraced the Messiah.

If you keep the Feast Days do not do so as a work of self-righteousness. Do it out of love for Him who was nailed to the cross for you. Do it in remembrance, rejoice and be glad for the things He has done for you share it with others that they too may know the truth. Invite someone to a Feast

Nisan 14; Feast of Passover: redemption, Messiah the Passover Lamb would be sacrificed for us.
Nisan 15-21; Feast of Unleavened Bread: speaks of sanctification. Messiahs body would not decay in the grave.
Nisan 16; Feast of Firstfruits: Speaks of resurrection. Messiah would rise triumphantly on the third day.
50 days after Firstfruits; Feast of Weeks: speaks of origination. Messiah would send the Holy Spirit.
Tishri 1; Feast of Trumpets: points to the future day when Messiah returns to rescue the righteous and judge the wicked.
Tishri 10; Yom Kippur: Day of atonement. When Israel repents and turns to Messiah for salvation
Tishri 15-21; Tabernacles: points to the time when Messiah sets up the messianic Kingdom and tabernacles among men.

1. De Sola Pool, David, The Traditional Prayer Book for Sabbath and Festivals.
2. above taken from The Feasts of the Lord Howard and Rosenthal 1997

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby jimbaum » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:25 am

Brother Dave,

Greetings! May the Lord bless you.

Where in the New Testament do you see being taught that keeping Old Testament feasts is important?

Love in Christ,

Jim

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:20 am

Hi Jim may the Lord bless you and yours,

I cannot find anywhere in the new testament which explicitly states it is important especially towards salvation. However from what I have read in the old testament these feasts were instituted by God Himself and I cannot find anywhere it says NOT to do them. Additionally the only reason I find why these feasts were to be kept is as a REMEMBRANCE what the Lord has done for us. They are in no way meant as a work of self righteousness, or something that we do to look acceptable in God's eyes.

I do find where Yahushua says if you love me do my commandments. Another place where He is keeping the Passover Feast with His disciples (a.k.a. Lords table). But this time it is He who is our Passover Lamb and we are once again commanded to do certain things as REMEMBRANCE.

On a side note I remember a question to a pastor asking how oft should we celebrate this Lords table? He said he didn't know. But if a date is required then I say it is Nisan 14, 5770 which translates into March 29, 2010 for the rest of us.

Look what goes on out there some chase bunny rabbits, smudge their foreheads with ash, celebrate Christmas, or claim to by slain by the spirit, celebrate New Years on the first of January instead of in the fall, in additon I suspect to alot of other church traditions. How man thump our chests and say look what we have done in your name? Yet these seven solemn feasts which YHVH instituted for a specific reason we disregard. Why? are we afraid will do them for the same reasons we do the others above?

These are just thoughts Jim, I'm glad we can talk about these things.

What sparked this was a book I read; Feasts of The Lord by Rosenthal and Howard. So far I cannot see anything unscriptural, it seems at this point to make alot sense. And I wanted to share it with you and anyone else that reads this.

May we in our busy day never forget what our Lord has done for us.

David

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby jimbaum » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:43 pm

Brother David,

Amen to our rememberance of all the Lord has done for us.

It is my conviction that the reason we don't find any emphasis in the New Testament for believing Jews and believing gentiles to celebrate the feasts is because the feasts were a shadow, a representation of Jesus who has now come.

To continue to devote ourselves to feasts is like pursuing a relationship with a photo of my wife when my wife is here with me.

This is the nature of the New Covenant and Emmanuel.

Your friend,

Jim

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby David » Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:09 am

Hi Jim,

I think we do find an emphasis in the New Testament. We read of our Lord celebrating the Passover Feast with His disciples. We hear Him say when we do break bread and consume wine during the feast we are to Remember His body broken and blood shed for us. He being our Passover Lamb. Throughout the old testament these feasts were supposed to be times of celebration we were told to do these things as a remembrance. I find no where in old or new that says not to do these.

However I do whole heartily agree with you Jim we do not do these things to look pleasing to God as that is impossible for any man to do. We do NOT celebrate these feasts as acts of self rightousness our pat our selves on the back because we were able to do them on time, nor or as a means of salvation. Nope they were to the best of my knowledge only feasts of remembrance of the wonderful works Messiah has done and will do and nothing more.

I find it hypocritical man will rebel against these feasts instituted by the God of Heaven. Yet how many go out and feast in remembrance of Him during Christmas. Nothing wrong with that mind you it is the same thing only a feast of remembrance the only difference being it was who man instituted it.

Think what New years has become, how many have forgotten God because they now celebrate New Years getting whiskey bent on Dec 31- Jan1. Would it not be wise for them to remember what the fall feasts (Rosh Hoshanna) represent and remember His judgement?

I believe many have forgotten because they have been taught otherwise.


A couple of questions

define the term new covenent

what is the difference between a believing Jew and a believing Gentile?

May God bless our understanding Jim.

God bless you and yours Jim.

Your friend David

drno77
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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby drno77 » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:04 am

HI David and Jim,
So far I think I'm the third to post on this.

I am kinda concerned about how many folks are saying that we "need to learn the Hebrew roots to understand scripture".
I have said repeatedly to friends who mention this that I love the Hebrew roots and the many things we can learn from this study,
however we do not NEED this to understand scripture.

Please understand, I don't think that is what is being asserted here.
I just wanted to mention it since I have heard that comment a lot lately.

What I believe we need is the Holy Spirit indwelling and a desire to learn.
(1Corinthians 2:12-14; Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy [fn] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
2Timothy 2:15; Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. )


As to keeping the feasts, I certainly do not think Scripture prohibits this.
(Romans 14:5-6; One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.)
I still am a little shy about it though, because I think the Galatians were thinking it somehow made them more spiritual.
( Galatians chapter 4:10-11; You observe days and months and seasons and years.
I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.)

I believe the context in the rest of Galatians 4 shows those brothers were being "zealously courted" by folks saying they needed the "Hebrew roots" of the law; days months etc.
Again, I wouldn't forbid this study, but would admonish caution.
Of course, we must all be like the Bereans and come to our own conclusion.

Blessings,

Dale

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Re: Whats been going in my brain lately

Postby jimbaum » Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:04 pm

Brother Dale,

Welcome to the discussion board.

I truly appreciate your input on this topic.

Jim


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