Mars Hill Teaching On Sex

Let us discuss the nature of megachurches and denominations including non-denominational denominations.
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wackzingo
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Mars Hill Teaching On Sex

Post by wackzingo »

I know several people who attend mars hill church in seattle and they have mentioned how much they like the teaching. So, I have been listening to a variety of teaching to find out if their teaching are biblical and pastor Mark's teaching on sex concern me. I understand there are differing views of Song of Solomon, I personally believe that it can be both helpful for married couples as well as a picture of the love of Jesus for his bride--the church. However, maybe it's just me, but I had this feeling the whole time I listened to Mark go through and talk about Song of Solomon and it's practical implications. I just had this feeling the whole time he was really stretching the text out of contect. Making marriage seem as if the only sex can hold together a marriage.

He mentions that the bride "invites him...sweetheart, come into your garden and taste your fruit. She encourages him that she wants to perform o___ s__ on him, she invites him to do likewise upon her. This is a biblical marriage, this is an absolutely biblical marriage. If you want to have a marriage that's gonna last 50, 60 years you gotta learn to trust each other, and be honest and invite one another to take God seriously and yourself a little less so."

He also teaches that it teaches wifes to "strip" for their husbands and dance for them. Again, he says after all these points, "this is biblical".

He says that Song of Solomon 7:2 is not talking about the naval and the hebrew text is clear on this. He says the english translation got scared and translated it wrong. He says "have you ever seen a woman with a round, moist, wet bellie button"...."Another part of the woman's anatomy does".

It just seems to me that he is stretching some of these things a little too far. Maybe it's just because I'm a single guy and some of this stuff is a little shocking to think about as being biblical. It's not that I think these things are "sinful" for married couples but at the same time I don't see the scripture "teaching" or "encouraging" these things. I would love to hear from married people on this topic.

The address to this sermon is below.
http://www.marshillchurch.org/audio/03. ... iscoll.mp3
jimbaum
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Post by jimbaum »

Zach,

I decided to edit your post a little. No offense intended to you, brother, but I just didn't want that phrase on my site. I know it's still discernible to some. It's just a judgement call on my part. Please be patient with me!

What is a bummer though is that you had to report such a public teaching posted on a public web site.

I will check it out for myself.

While I agree that there is a time and place for brethren to discuss anything, I'm not sure it was appropriate for the clergyman to deal with these things the way he did.

Also, one should be very careful not to add to the word of God, by saying that it says something that it doesn't!

Jim B.
wackzingo
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Post by wackzingo »

Jim,

I completely understand why you edited it. I probably would have done the same if it were my website. The only reason I didn't edit it is I wanted it to be a quote and decided I would let you edit it if you had a problem with it.

There are two things I would like to discuss:

First, what are people's opinions on the book of Song Of Solomon--Is it an allegory or is it practical or both.

Second: What are people's opinions about Mark's interpretations in the teaching listed in the first post.

I was always told and virtually all well known commentators and preachers all the way back to the early Christian churches have said that it is an allegory of Christ's love for His bride--the church. Some held to it being also practical but almost all agreed that it was an allegory. Not that tradition should replace discernment through scripture, but it seems to me that for us to start coming along and saying all these Christian men over hundreds of years were wrong, and we now know the truth... seems a bit arrogant.

Zach
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Post by wackzingo »

I also wanted to add another question I thought about while talking with David at work about Song of Solomon.

I don't believe anyone doubts that when Song of Solomon was written it was written as a love poem about the love between a bride and groom. This is a descriptive, graphic and passionate love poem. We are to apply all scripture to our lives and I don't think any of us disagree with that. However the question that came to mind today is:

Is there such a thing as taking scripture too practical or too literal?
jimbaum
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False Religion of Pragmatism

Post by jimbaum »

Your last question about Song of Solomon, Zach, provoked me to bring up a much broader concern of mine. I believe there is a tendency in popular Evangelicalism to emphasize "practical" which I believe ends up meaning "Earthly minded". In fact, I believe this is central to the Tower of Babel religion of the Anti-Christ which is sweeping the world.

Sorry to take such a leap from your question! I should probably reprimand myself for not staying on topic. Maybe I should create another topic.

Our question about a particular scripture is what is God's intent. The context of the whole Bible gives us the answer. I will continue to ponder your questions.

Jim
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Post by wackzingo »

Jim,

The last post wasn't that far off topic. But could you please gives some examples or better explain what you mean by the practical being earthly minded?

I like much of the teachings at Mars Hill and Mark's teachings. My problems have been on his teaching regarding sex and marriage. Unless I'm understanding things wrongly, it seems as if he is simply teaching that if you struggle with sexual sin or want to prevent sexual sin all you need to do is get married and much of your problems will be solved. I'm not ignorant enough to believe that marriage has anything to do with preventing people from committing sexual sin. I believe this is what Mark believes and so I believe that is why he goes so far to make Song of Solomon practical to married couples. I believe every verse in Song of Solomon is practical because it is scripture and all scripture is profitable. In my opinion Mark needs to leave more "practical" application out when teaching on the topic of sex and teach it as something to be decided between the married couples and the Lord. There are specific sexual things that should be left for the people to discover on their own and the bible should be the guide of whether it is right or wrong and not a detailed book of sexual things to be practiced. That's my opinion as a single guy.
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False Religion of Pragmatism

Post by jimbaum »

Zach,

I believe you put it well that there are areas of freedom and disputable matters that a married couple can seek the Lord together about that are inappropriate to discuss in detail by a Bible teacher in a regular meeting of the assembly. I think that when brethren get together in appropriate settings that almost nothing is off-limits for discussion if it will be edifying.

Also, I think we agree that Genesis to Revelation, including Song of Solomon, is practical. In other words:
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness , through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue..." 2 Peter 1:3
I believe that there is no area of human living that is not covered by the Bible either explicitly or by principle. So THAT'S practical!

What I mean by the false religion of pragmatism, boils down to phrase "What Ever Works".

The extreme of this is represented by global technocrats who might think that a war every 20 years is good for the stability of world markets.

A trend in Evangelicalism that points in this direction is the contemplative spirituality movement that advocates techniques for "spiritual growth" and "practicing the presence of God".

"The ends justify the means" would be another classic attitude.

Other examples are psychological or mystical techniques that promise the fruit of the spirit.

Sometimes I see among popular Evangelical celebrities and those who follow them a promotion of this vision of pragmatism in the guise of what's "practical". They minimize prophecy and what they would see as a "pie in the sky" teaching about the eternal purposes of the Church as taught in Ephesians 3:10 and 11.

Jim
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Post by wackzingo »

I agree. Rick Warren is the king of pragmatism. The thing that drives me crazy about Rick Warren is he has spend millions on marketing and has his wording down so that it's still Christian according to all major verses which makes it so hard to explain to people why it's so wrong. It has just enough error to be completely wrong and its hard to explain this to people. Especially people who have no discernment and so they are tossed back and forth by every wind of teaching. Its hard to explain because Rick Warren does not deny any of the stuff in the apostles creed, he does not deny the Gospel directly in fact he always encourages people to always share the gospel (watered down). He says numbers aren't the focus and should be. So what's so wrong about keeping the message but changing the way it's presented? This is what's hard to explain to people. At least for me.
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Post by jimbaum »

Zach,

Consider the following from the Lighthouse Trails site:

"Mark Driscoll and Acts 29 Network - Promoting Contemplative"

Jim
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Post by wackzingo »

Interesting article from light house trails...but I think he is distancing himself from the movement...maybe not as much or as quickly as some would like but in his defense there is still a lot we don't know about the movement.

His blog post here I think shows a little more his position

http://www.theresurgence.com/md_blog_20 ... ent_church
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Post by jimbaum »

Thanks, Zach, for the link.

Here is a quote from the Lighthouse Trails site:
Under the "A29 Recommended Reading List" is a selection of what is referred to as "worthy literature." The list includes books by Richard Foster, Dallas Willard, and a book called The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. Other books on the list include those by panentheist St. John of the Cross, and a collection of books about Celtic Spirituality (i.e., contemplative spirituality) as well as books by Thomas Merton, Teresa of Avila, Eugene Peterson, and Larry Crabb (AACC). Act 29's recommendation of Thomas Merton (who said he was impregnated with Sufism: Islamic mysticism)is perhaps the most telling of all. One of the books Driscoll recommends by Merton is Wisdom of the Desert (referring to the desert fathers).
I went to the Acts 29 site and verified that the above books were listed, e.g., by Richard Foster. I think this is a serious problem.

Jim
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A Biblical Teaching on Song of Songs

Post by jimbaum »

I recommend reading Steve Phillips new booklet on the Song of Songs at:



http://procinwarn.com/West-Africa/west- ... 0Fragments

or

http://procinwarn.com/West-Africa/song_of_songs.pdf (300 kb)
Gather up the fragments that remain So that nothing is lost Jn.6:13

Black but Lovely

Thoughts on the Song of Songs

Introduction

God speaks in images of the commonplace. Through lowly parables, sublime truths emerge by employing the things of earth to unveil those of heaven. Concealed to the casual glance are storehouses of undisclosed wealth in the Word of God. Gold is not gathered on the surface. Hidden treasures must be searched out ere their riches are discovered and possessed by the seeker. Shadowed in the narratives of Scripture are portraits of Christ and saving grace that the Spirit of God illumines radiantly to refresh and invigorate every seeking soul.

Peculiar among the sacred writings of the Scriptures are the books of Esther and the Song of Songs. In neither one is the name of the Lord to be found, yet both illustrate the ways and work of God among His people. Esther’s extended parable portrays that of the Holy Spirit within the individual believer, while the Song paints a portrait of Christ’s love for His church and of hers for Him.

Solomon penned an inspired trilogy that chronicles the journey of the soul from utter vanity in the world to utmost rapture in glory. Spiritually, the sequence moves first from Ecclesiastes, then to Proverbs, and finally climaxes in the Song of Songs.
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