One God in Three Persons

How shall we rightly divide the word of God on any particular topic?
Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Tue May 18, 2010 8:16 am

jimbaum wrote:Theo_Book, Dale and I have discussed with you about the nature of God. We say the Lord our God is One God and eternally exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. You say there is only God the Father, who is the Spirit, and Jesus is a created being.

I agree that we have not adequately answered your questions. On the other hand you have been dismissive in an unreasonable way to our points.

Dale quoted, John 17:5, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” And you said this was a reference to preplanning.


If that was all I posted in response, I might agree that I had "dismissed" in an unreasonable way, but that was not all I posted. I showed a pattern found in scripture of other things that were attributed to "before the world was" and suggested that the John 17:5 example was another in the same vein. THAT constitutes evidence, not "dismissiveness."

I referred to how Jesus referred to Himself as “I Am” before Abraham was and you say He was just referring to Himself in prophecy.


Again, I showed Paul's statement that "that which was spiritual" was not first. Your response does not deal with that. My response agrees with "I am" being a simple reference to Jesus' being in prophecy prior to Abraham.

It was pointed out to you that Thomas responded to Jesus with, “My Lord, my God”. You said it was just an exclamation rather than recognition who who Jesus was.


Not really! I gave, again, a whole pattern of behaviour laid down in scripture to lead to a conclusion. You will need to explain that away to make thomas say things contrary to the circumstances. Remember, the disciples did NOT say to thomas, "God is risen." They said "We have seen the Lord." AND John himself testified what the testimony meant..."These (things) are written that ye might believe Jesus is the "SON OF GOD."If ever there was an opportunity to express trinity doctrine, this was it... All John had to say was "That ye might believe Jesus is God..." But John did not avail himself of that opportunity. He simply stated that "Ye might believe Jesus is the son of God."

Even the resurrection itself did not prove the deity of Jesus, but rather demonstrated his sonship; "...Declared to be the son of God by the resurrection from the dead." [Rom 1:3]

These are flimsy answers.


Really? In which case it should be easy to rebut them.

I join with you in "These are questions of eternal life and death. One or both of us are wrong. One or both of us are under the eternal judgment of God. God, please help us. In Jesus' name I pray."
God

Who knows me best

Loved me just enough

to make it count the most

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:37 pm

Not really! I gave, again, a whole pattern of behaviour laid down in scripture to lead to a conclusion. You will need to explain that away to make thomas say things contrary to the circumstances. Remember, the disciples did NOT say to thomas, "God is risen." They said "We have seen the Lord." AND John himself testified what the testimony meant..."These (things) are written that ye might believe Jesus is the "SON OF GOD."If ever there was an opportunity to express trinity doctrine, this was it... All John had to say was "That ye might believe Jesus is God..." But John did not avail himself of that opportunity. He simply stated that "Ye might believe Jesus is the son of God."


There is a saying from the middle east; Your words are the daughter of your thoughts the daughter of your lips.

Think about that relationship now and what your words do, your words are what define you.

God chose to call His Word His Son. His Word was made manifest in the flesh and dwelt among us. God had even on one account manifest Himself as a burning bush to Moses.

There is only one God not three.

That word trinity is an ugly thing always confused the snot outta me sometimes. Mans attempt to describe God using his own imagination. Nowhere found in the Bible yet always used to describe God. Let God describe Himself, easier that way

jimbaum
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:01 pm

David,

Are you convinced that Jesus is God?

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:53 pm

I am convinced that God's Word was made manifest in the flesh and dwelt among us. His Word He chose to call His Son and named Him 'Yahweh Saves'. They are one and the same.

But this word trinity I believe is only mans vain attempt to define God and it sometimes confuses people thinking I actually worship three gods. However I am convinced I only know of one God. :D

jimbaum
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:26 pm

David,

How would your views differ from Theo Book who posts here. I think he is Jehova's Witness from the Watchtower Society.

Jim

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:42 pm

My concerns are this.

I know the concept of the Trinity did not come from Judaism nor did Yahushua speak of a trinity. Then where did it come from?

Throughout scripture we are taught there is only One God. I am told His Word was made manifest in the flesh an dwelt among us. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Those things I find in scripture I am content with that because this is God describing or revealing Himself to us in His words. But trinity I do not find, nor do i see anywhere someone speaking in scripture of 3 persons or individuals of some godhead.

Messiah said: "follow me". We do not need to adhere to the Athanasian Creed and that of Arian and other ecumenical doctrines and laws.

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:31 am

oh, sorry, in answer to your question whether I think like Theo-Book I'd have to say NO to that. I do not think of Messiah as a created being. How can anyone say God and His Word are one then turn right around and say Messiah was created? Nor do I believe the 1st century ecumenical laws and creeds that proclaim three individuals or persons in some perceived godhead. Nope to both I believe He is just as the Father describes Him; His Word made manifest in the flesh. Look up the word manifest and compare that with creation below.

Remember that middle east saying I mentioned above? Your word is the daughter of your thoughts and the daughter of your lips. Jim, your word is your daughter there is a special relationship there, your words reveal your thoughts, heart, emotions and feelings, your words define who you are! You and your word are one we can learn a great deal about you Jim just by what you say. But you are not God not even a little god nor can you manifest them to me in the flesh like God can.

I think also the relationship of the Word and the Father is similar. But instead of a daughter the Father calls his Word His Son as according to the law only a male can be high priest and just as your words define who you are so too does His Word define who He is. But God can manifest His Word in the flesh so that not only can we hear Him but see Him as well. The flesh had another purpose too as we see on the Cross. God and His Word are one and we can learn a great deal about the Father through His precious Word. Come to think of it He also manifest Himself as a pillar of smoke and a burning bush too! Reckon because nobody can look directly upon him.

And another thing! :D Does Jesus save? God named His Son Yahushua (hebrew) or Yeshua (aramaic) and it does not mean "Jesus saves", it means "Yahweh saves" a.k.a. "God saves"!

Man I hope that makes sense. :)

----------------------------------

from websters 1828 dictionary

CREATED, pp. Formed from nothing; caused to exist; produced; generated; invested with a new character; formed into new combinations, with a peculiar shape, constitution and properties; renewed.


MAN'IFEST, a. [L. manifestus.]

1. Plain, open, clearly visible to the eye or obvious to the understanding; apparent; not obscure or difficult to be seen or understood. From the testimony, the truth we conceive to be manifest.

Thus manifest to sight the god appeared.

That which may be known of God is manifest in them. Rom.1.

2. Detected; with of.

Calistho there stood manifest of shame. [Unusual.] ...
Last edited by David on Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

jimbaum
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:20 pm

When Jesus was baptized, he was a person. The Father, a person, addressed the assembly. The Spirit, a person, descended like a dove. How the three can be one is an example of how I cannot grasp some aspects of infinite God.

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:56 am

I now how ya feel, if my knowledge on the subject were compared to the universe I'd feel as if I were boasting to say it would barely amount to the size of a molecule. His ways are far above our own.

He was, He is, The Most High God!

jimbaum
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:05 pm

Amen, David.

I have always appreciated you as one of most loving people to take part on this discussion board, even when we disagree about important things.

Love in our Lord,

Jim

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:18 am

Hi again, it's been awhile since my last rant on this trinity subject.

In the first book of Moses it says man was created in the image of God. Many I think immediately start working their imaginations to try and explain what Gods image might look like. I took another route, I looked at man himself and how he was created. It I think explains the Oneness of Yehovah and the so called trinity.

I find Adam was still alone when he was commanded by God not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. Next I read woman came forth from Adam, she was flesh of his flesh bone of his bone, in other words they are one flesh yet two distinct indentities. Next I read something fascinating, this commandment not to eat the fruit of a certain tree came only once from God. Yet when the serpent inquires of the woman about what God said she knew about it too. It seems to imply she was there when God gave the commandment to Adam.

We see the oneness of Adam and the woman when the commandment was given. Then later two very distinct identities yet still one flesh. Each too having within them the ability to produce a child created in their image (human).

Because of how I see man and woman were created I contend the Holy Spirit too was brought forth from God. In Genesis before anything was created there were described already in existence 'waters', which I believe describe God because they were there already before anything was ever created. There was an interaction between the Holy Spirit and the waters. Then God said "light be". This light (II Corinthians 4:6) is Gods only begotten Son Yeshua created in Yehovah's image (God) The oneness of God in three distinct identities.

Later the Son and co-creator was made manifest in the flesh.

Did that make sense to anyone?

troypulk
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby troypulk » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:58 pm

Hello,

Sure it makes sense but you're thinking about earthly things instead of heavenly things.

It sounds like your making this way more complicated than it is, scripture says at face value that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and plural, don't you believe.

There are a lot of scripture verses that confirm this, quoting them to you will not help you understand as the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give understanding of His Word.

So the issue is that if you have faith you will believe what scripture says with out a doubt and understanding it is a process that never ends.

I may not understand it completely but I will believe what it says, and Jesus said that He was God when he said:
Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He that has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
(John 14:8,9 EMTV)

Also,

Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:18, EMTV)

That's why this term (Son of God) was used. The Jews understood this literally and Jesus did not deny it.


Also on another note to show that Jesus and God are one and the same and that Jesus did not come from God as being born or made but coming from God as in being sent, Jesus is the same as Melchizedek.

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham divided a tenth part of everything, first being interpreted "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, which is "king of peace," without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
(Hebrews 7:1-3 EMTV)

for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him that said to Him: "The Lord has sworn and will not relent, 'You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek' ",
(Hebrews 7:21, EMTV)


Also

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit, and for you to keep back for yourself from the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why have you purposed this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God."
(Acts 5:3,4 EMTV)


So the point is that I believe what it says at face value Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit and they are plural, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one with different jobs in the Jewish way of things, God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Helper/Doer, understanding the details is not possible but that does mean I don't believe what it says.

You either believe what scripture says or you don't. The only people that can understand scripture are those who have been given ears to hear and eye's to see what the Word of God means and as I get older my eye's become sharper.

I hope this helps

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:12 pm

It sounds like your making this way more complicated than it is, scripture says at face value that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and plural, don't you believe.


I think we agree but go about explaining it differently.

Man was made in the image of God. I thought by looking at how man was made we see what the image of God is that was spoken of in Genesis. Eve coming forth from Adam (flesh of his flesh bone of his bone) an interaction between them produces a child made in their image (human). This may too reflect the Oneness of the God Family. Even some Rabbis say that the Spirit of the Holy One is both One with God AND separate and distinct from God. Perhaps they get this from Isaiah 48:16 which has the Messiah saying:

'Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret. From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord Yahveh has sent Me, and His Spirit.'

Though I have never read anywhere how the Holy Spirit, for lack of better words, came to be. In the beginning I see two distinct identities before anything was ever created, we are immediately introduced without further information to an interaction between 'waters' which darkness prevailed upon and the Spirit (Holy Spirit). I believe this Spirit is referring to the Holy Spirit brought forth out from God and that the waters in darkness (Exodus 20:21) are in reference to Yehovah. Himself. After an interaction between the waters and Spirit, Yehovah speaks 'Light Be', this light comes from the darkness (II Cor 4:6) I believe this is the moment the Only Begotten Son makes His apearance made in the image of God (Diety). Boils down to One source yet three separate and distinct identities.

My next big question what Word was made manifest in the flesh? I know but still it is something I like talking about.

Peace Troy

troypulk
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby troypulk » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:32 pm

I understand what your saying, But.

There are other bible verses that talk about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, when you put these in context with one another you see that all three persons of the God head are talked about the in the same way.

Like in
(Genesis 1:1-3, KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Gods Spirit moved upon the waters, He was distinct and separate from God. The waters were the first part of the created earth, it was physical not spiritual.

Also, in Gen 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(Genesis 1:26, KJV)

God said let us make man, this us was Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Now when the bible talks about God it says things like He was not created had no beginning or end, this means since the bible clearly says that Jesus and the Holy Spirit have the same attributes of God the Father that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also like God in that they were not created nor have a beginning or end, they did not come from God they were God, they have always been together.

In Gen 3:1 Eve knew about the tree of life because Adam or God told her, there's no reason to go beyond whats normal for humans when scripture doesn't say.

We do not use our human understanding to understand scripture beyond what the normal English and Greek usage is, scripture interprets scripture and if the scriptures do not say or imply a meaning then God did not include that information and or we are not meant to know.

The scripture doesn't tell us every detail.

Also, whats the Gospel?

The Gospel is that we are all sinners by nature and deserve hell for sinning against God, He will one day judge the human race and all will end up in hell.

The good news is that Jesus died to forgive sin, if you realize you are a sinner and feel guilty for sinning against God you can then confess your sins to God and repent, if you sincerely repent God will save you and you will not end up in hell.

Also, the labels we give God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as in the Trinity, Godhead etc... are just that, labels, just because they do not appear in the bible does not mean that their meaning and intent are not.

Here is a good guide
http://carm.org/dictionary-trinity

I hope you have a good new year

David
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby David » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:13 am

It is true man was created in the image of God. But I think when people hear about being made in His image they tend to think maybe they are themselves 'little gods' or may let their imaginations run wild what His image may be. I just looked at how man was created to find out a possible explanation what it is meant to be created in His image is all.

*Waters ---> Spirit
(one God yet separate and distinct)
|
unknown type interaction
produces a Son ("Light be")
|
V
His Word
(made in His image diety)

*Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)



Adam -----> Chavah-life giver (flesh of his flesh bone of his bone)
(one flesh yet separate and distinct)
|
physical intercourse
produces a son
|
V
Cain
(made in his image human)


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