One God in Three Persons

How shall we rightly divide the word of God on any particular topic?
Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sat May 15, 2010 11:42 am

jimbaum wrote:You concluded correctly that I would conclude that Jesus is claiming to be the same person that spoke to Moses in the burning bush.


Why? Scripture does not say so. Scripture tells us God is a single person siongle being deity. Just because Jesus appears in prophesy prior to Abraham's appearance in the historical account does notmean Jesus was pre-existant deity.
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Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sat May 15, 2010 11:52 am

jimbaum wrote:You concluded correctly that I would conclude that Jesus is claiming to be the same person that spoke to Moses in the burning bush.


Are you familiar with the argumjent from "convertible terms?
SAMPLES OF INCONVERTIBLE TERMS IN SCRIPTURE

John 1:14
the Word was made flesh
o logos sarx egeneto
WHAT IS NOT SAID:[flesh became the logos]

I John 4:16
God is love;
O theos agapee estin
WHAT IS NOT SAID:[love is God]

SAMPLES OF CONVERTIBLE TERMS IN SCRIPTURE.
Matthew 6:22
The light of the body is the eye:
O luxnos tou swmatos estin o opsthalmos.
[The eye is the light of the body]

Matthew 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth:
umeis este to alas tees gees
[The salt of the earth are ye]

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world;
de agros estin o kosmos
[the world is the field]

the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
de kalon sperma outoi eisin oi uiois tees basileias
[the children of the kingdom are the good seed]

the tares are the children of the wicked one;
de zizania eisin oi uiois tou' poneerou
[the children of the wicked one are the tares]

Matthew 16:16
Thou art the Christ.
Su ei o xristoS.
[The Christ art thou]

Matthew 26:26
this is my body.
touto estin to swma mou.
[my body is this]

Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood
touto gar estin to aima mou
[my blood is this]

John 8:12
I am the light:
Egw eimi to phws
[the light am I]

John 10:7
I am the door
egw eimi ee thura
[The door am I]

John 14:6
I am the way, the truth, and the life:
Egw eimi ee odos kai ee aleetheia kai ee zwee:
[the way am I; the truth am I; the life am I]
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jimbaum
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sat May 15, 2010 11:58 am

God told Moses that "I am" sent him.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders, "I am".

Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sat May 15, 2010 12:13 pm

jimbaum wrote:God told Moses that "I am" sent him.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders, "I am".


So what? Peter quoted two old testament passages, including "I AM" but no one claims Peter is God.

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, WHOM YE SEEK, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts." [Mal 3:1]

"Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, behold, "I AM" HE "WHOM YE SEEK;" What is the cause wherefore ye have come?" [Acts 10:21]

So, Peter "quotes" Jehovah's "I AM" [Exo 3:14] and also He "whom ye seek" [Mal 3:1] so does that make Peter God?

John 8:54 could have been translated "before Abraham was, I was."

LOOK AT HOW MANY TIMES "EGW" AND "EIMI" ARE TRANSLATED "WAS" IN THE SCRIPTURES
"eimi translated "was"
See Gen 3:11 "I was naked"
Deu 9:19 "I was afraid"

Egw is also translated "I was"
Ezra 7:28 "I WAS strengthened"
Neh 1:1 "I WAS in Shushan"
Neh 1:11 "I WAS the king's cupbearer."
Job 29:16 "I WAS a father to the poor:"
Pro 8:30 "Then I WAS by him"
Ecc 1:12 "I the Preacher WAS king over Israel in Jerusalem."
Jer 11:19 "But I WAS like a lamb..."
Eze 1:1 "as I WAS among the captives by the river"
Dan 8:5 "And as I was considering"
Dan 10:4 "I WAS by the side of the great river"
Dan 10:8 "Therefore I WAS left alone"
Amo 7:14 "I WAS no prophet, neither a prophet's son"
Luke 19:22 "Thou knewest that I WAS an austere man,"
2 Cor 12:13 I (myself) WAS not burdensome to you"
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sat May 15, 2010 12:27 pm

Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders that before Abraham existed, He already existed.

Jesus' statement cannot reasonably be construed to be saying he was prophesied before Abraham existed.

The plain meaning of the statement is that before Abraham was, Jesus was.

Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sat May 15, 2010 2:01 pm

jimbaum wrote:Jesus was telling the Jewish leaders that before Abraham existed, He already existed.

Jesus' statement cannot reasonably be construed to be saying he was prophesied before Abraham existed.

The plain meaning of the statement is that before Abraham was, Jesus was.


That conclusion makes scripture contradict scripture.

Paul says "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." [I Cor 15:45-46]

If you take the position trinitarians take, you wind upo with many scriptures contradicting many other scriptures. If you understand the proper chronology of scripture, all that conflict disappears. Jesus appeared in prophecy in Gen 3:15; Abraham appeared in history; Jesus appeared in history; Jesus referenced his appearance in prophecy prior to Abraham's appearance in history. Paul makes it clear.; Simple, no contradiction in scripture.

God is singular person in singular being; contradicts Jesus is God, second person of a trinity; Jesus predates Abraqham, contradicts "Jesus was begotten" in Mat 1:20. My position has no contradictions, no scripture conflicts, and no "mystery" religion to be "believed without understanding."
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sat May 15, 2010 2:31 pm

Do you worship Jesus?

Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sat May 15, 2010 3:22 pm

jimbaum wrote:Do you worship Jesus?


I bow my head in humble submission, but worswhip as I worship the father? No! I am not an angel. Angels, not humans, were told to worship thse on. I honor the son as I honor the Father, but honor [timaw] is not worship [proskuneo].
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sat May 15, 2010 4:01 pm

John 20:26-29

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sun May 16, 2010 12:07 am

jimbaum wrote:John 20:26-29

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


WHATEVER Thomas was declaring, it was NOT that Jesus was God. I believe John tells it best, when he tells us "Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name." [John 20:30-31]

Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, and seeing the prints of the nails, and all doubt finally and utterly removed, he expresses the only thought left to him, crying "MY LORD and MY GOD."

None of the apostles said to Thomas, "God is risen." They testified "We have seen the Lord."[John 20:25] Thomas already KNEW it was God who would raise him from the dead.

"And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? 19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. 20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. 21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing; 22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." [Luke 9:18-22]

So Thomas, upon seeing resurrected Christ made the only connection he could between what he saw and what he had already been told to expect; God working a miracle to raise Thomas' Lord.

John concurs with this exegesis. "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." [John 20:30-31][/quote]

Did he believe Jesus was God? No. He knew he himself had only recently been involved in raising the dead. He saw God behind the deed. And he saw his resurrected Lord. AS DID THEY ALL.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jesus did not say he would raise himself from the dead. He said "I will raise it up" which is a reference to his body, which is the church. When Jesus was being killed, if he had not been raised, the gates of Hell would have prevailed against him; the church was also being killed. If he had not been raised from the dead, there would be no church today.

When he was raised from the dead, he began raising his church by continuing with them forty days - Acts 1:3 "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, AND SPEAKING OF THE THINGS PERTAINING TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

All the scriptures tell us God raised him from the dead, by the Holy Spirit. He did NOT raise himself, because NO MAN could possibly do that. And Luke testified that "Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which GOD DID BY HIM in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" [Acts 2:22]

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.[Acts 2:23] "raised up" is aorist ACTIVE. God actively raised Jesus from the dead.

WHAT DID THOMAS REMEMBER?
Thomas could well remember Jesus own words - "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." [Mat 16:21]

"Be raised" is aorist PASSIVE, which means he did not raise himself. Do you really think Thomas did not hear this?

"And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.[Mat 17:22-23]
This time, "be raised" is "future PASSIVE." Both times the reference to Jesus' part in resurrection is to a passave action, indicating Jesus will be raised, not raise himself.

"Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day." [Luke 9:22] "be raised" is "aorist PASSIVE" in this verse. Three times Thomas has heard this testimony, and seen it in action at least once in the case of Lazarus, Besides the times he saw Jesus raising the dead, and when Thomas himself was involved in the same type of miracle.

WHAT WAS EXPERIENCED BY THOMAS? THIS IS WHAT THOMAS REMEMBERED. NOT A LATER REVELATION.
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, RAISE THE DEAD, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." [Mat 10:1-8]

"And THE APOSTLES gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and TOLD HIM all things, both WHAT THEY HAD DONE, and what they had taught.31 And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while: for there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat. 32 And they departed into a desert place by ship privately." [Mark 6:30-32]

Thomas had sufficient memory to remember that when Lazarus was raised by God at Jesus' request, it was Jesus who raisd him but it was God behind the deed. THIS IS WHAT THOMAS REMEMBERED.

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already. 18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off: 19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. 20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house. 21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, which should come into the world.

28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee. 29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him. 30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him. 31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there. 32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35 Jesus wept. 36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him! 37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died? 38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, FATHER, I THANK THEE that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Thomas was a participant in the most amazing sequence of events in history. And he himself raised the dead. And he was a testimony witness to what Jesus said about his own resurrection. And three times it is recorded that Jesus used the passive verb to describe what is soon to take place. Yes, Thomas remembered alright. Only it was not soon to be released revelation he remembered, but recent events experienced.

AND, Jesus denied being our God; John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND UNTO my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and YOUR GOD.

Now I have a question for you. Why don't you respond to my questions? I have responded to your question several times, but you do not respond to mine, except with another question.
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Sun May 16, 2010 5:06 am

Alright, Theo_Book. I'll work on it...

But remember, Emmanuel means, "God with us"!

Love,

Jim

Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Sun May 16, 2010 6:51 am

jimbaum wrote:Alright, Theo_Book. I'll work on it...

But remember, Emmanuel means, "God with us"!

Love,

Jim


Right! It is a reminder that God is with us in his prophecied plans to save us.

Gen 10:28 "... Abimael..." *Abimael means "My Father is El (God)."Was this Jesus in the Old Testament? Or is there two who can say my name means "My father is God?"
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drno77
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby drno77 » Mon May 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Dear Theo_Book,
It is very probable that we will never convince you to take a trinitarian view, nor is it likely that you will shake us out of that view.

So it may be more edifying to let it go.

But one last question if I may.

What do you do with the fact that in Hebrews 1:8 the Father says to the Son "Thy throne O God is forever and ever"?


Blessings,

drno77

Theo_Book
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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby Theo_Book » Tue May 18, 2010 3:54 am

drno77 wrote:Dear Theo_Book,
It is very probable that we will never convince you to take a trinitarian view, nor is it likely that you will shake us out of that view.

So it may be more edifying to let it go.

But one last question if I may.

What do you do with the fact that in Hebrews 1:8 the Father says to the Son "Thy throne O God is forever and ever"?


Blessings,

drno77


I analyze the exchange just a tad differently. I see a trinitarian who asks questions, does not refute the responses; and also does not answer my questions.

My conclusion? You are afraid to learn something that might convince you to think otherwise. THAT would require a decision you are not willing to contemplate.

I asked you if John 1:1 is the basis of trinity's doctrine. You did not respond.

The consequence? You can continue to claim John 1:1 as the basis for pre-existant Jesus, who became flesh.

Why is this impoprtant? Because the third phrase in John 1:1 "...and the logos was God" contains inconvertible terminology. That was another question I asked and you failed to respond to. I asked "Are you familiar with inconvertible terms?" The result? "God" and "logos" are not convertible. They are not "exchangeable" means they cannot be considered equal in the sentence, therefore what can be said for one, cannot apply to, or be said of, the other. What is the result of this? When the "logos became flesh" God did NOT. John 1:1 therefore cannot be used to prove pre-existant Jesus was God who became flesh.

There are many other reasons I could offer you for reconsidering a trinitarian position, but you have pretty well demonstrated an unwillingness to examine anything that might convince you otherwise.

As for MY willingness to consider trinitarian position... I was raised a Catholic, and preached defense of trinitatianism for several years. I have continued to study the issues and have been convinced of the errors of the position for over thirty years. I now study with anyone who wants truth over creedal position.
I agree with your assessment however, and will not continue to publish on this issue until you show an interest by responding to my questions at least as often as I respond to yours.
God

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Re: One God in Three Persons

Postby jimbaum » Tue May 18, 2010 4:52 am

Theo_Book, Dale and I have discussed with you about the nature of God. We say the Lord our God is One God and eternally exists in three persons, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. You say there is only God the Father, who is the Spirit, and Jesus is a created being.

I agree that we have not adequately answered your questions. On the other hand you have been dismissive in an unreasonable way to our points.

Dale quoted, John 17:5, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” And you said this was a reference to preplanning.

I referred to how Jesus referred to Himself as “I Am” before Abraham was and you say He was just referring to Himself in prophecy.

It was pointed out to you that Thomas responded to Jesus with, “My Lord, my God”. You said it was just an exclamation rather than recognition who who Jesus was.

These are flimsy answers. And yet I do need to answer your questions more precisely.

These are questions of eternal life and death. One or both of us are wrong. One or both of us are under the eternal judgment of God. God, please help us. In Jesus' name I pray.


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